When does the Al Jean era turn awful & predictable?

[CousinMerl]

Then around season 15 people were like "wait a minute... why though?" and realized that there was actually no point in watching a show that they knew had been halfway semi-decent at it's very best for several years already, and so they finally dropped the show and never looked back except for fondly remembering seasons 1-8 and keeping them alive through endless quoting and internet memes.

Yet season 15 is still remembered and looked upon as one of the best post-classic Jean seasons so it may even have grown in estimation (and episode reviews at the time, such as when looking at the rate & review threads, were often actually quite decent to good) but I don't doubt there were many who dropped the show around 14 & 15 and only kept on remembering the good times of the classic first 8 or so seasons.

 

[Kangdos]

Well, obviously something happened around season 15 because that's when viewership numbers took a nosedive.

Personally though, like a lot of others, I consider seasons 15 and 16 to be the closest the show ever came during the entire zombie period between season 11 to season 32 to being a decent show. 15 and 16 are certainly more standable than the obnoxcious headache that were the Scully and earliest Jean era seasons, or the absolute garveyard of both comedy and narrative stucture that came directly afterwards.

 

[I Love Lisa]

I all sincerity, I realize that obviously I do get some kind of stimulation from zombie Simpsons or else I'd, as you said, just have stopped watching.

However I think in my case what drives me to stay by the shows side is some kind of morbid faschination as opposed to face-value enjoyment. Like you know how some people just sit around all day and read and listen to people spout political oppinions that are the complete polar opposite of their own? It pisses them off, it makes them sick to their stomach, but they just don't want to stop doing it. Lefties who live for reading obsessively about Donald Trump's every move and every utterance, rightwingers who does nothinhg but watch videos of "sjw's being cringe", ect.

Well people like that certainly do exist but I really can't get my head around it personally. I know it's easy to get sucked into negative cycles online and all, but I'd much rather spend my life seeking and doing what makes me happy rather than chasing what makes me unhappy. Pursuing anger and stuff just makes no sense to me but different strokes for different folks, I guess?

I have a saying, a saying that I've used to explain a lot of what I spend my time on, and it is "Not everyone whose interested in Hitler likes Hitler". And that about covers it. All of those historians who write about Hitler, all of those regular people who watches documentaries on Hitler (of whom many might be inclined to change the channel if the documentary is about just about any other historical figure except maybe the historical Jesus or Jack the Ripper. Really, I'd say that in continued interest among even total history noobs those three are the true holy trinity of viewership), how many are actually nazis that nod their head in agreement when reading his quotes? Not many, not in terms of percentage at least.

And yeah, that's zombie Simpsons to me. It's an interested I have, but I consider it a monstrosity that should never have been in the first place. But now that it's here I watch it in horror (well moreso in annoyance and boredom) and then I come here and complain about it. It's maybe not the best way to spend my time, but it's the way I somehow feel inclined to. It is the life I've chosed.

I do understand your Hitler analogy to a point, but I'm not sure it properly applies to something like watching The Simpsons? Yes, there are a lot of people interested in the nazis who are not nazis, but those documentaries you're talking about aren't pro-Hitler or aimed at a nazi audience. They're made to inform about unpleasant events which remain relevant and important information in the current day (lest we forget and all that) whereas The Simpsons is just a piece of entertainment. A Hitler doc can be truly horrible, but serve its educational purpose whilst a Simpsons episode that's horrible is just horrible. There's just no reason to watch it if you aren't getting any kind of fun out of it if you ask me. (Which is why I do still watch because I do still enjoy it. If I didn't, I wouldn't.)

Also I am greatly amused by the fact that you put a funny clip from season 13 at the end of your post.

 

[Sandboy]

Hmm...I honestly think that with the advent of the Internet, if anything-it makes it more difficult to discern the cultural discourse of where the series begins and ends.

I'd say Seasons 2-10 are the turning point. And this is where you will wonder: what about 1? Well, this is where I want to start developing my point. S1 is pretty good (it's the first season for god's sake). It's worth telling within the "original" canon of the show, but how many people really know anything about s1? This is a quaint question, but it's important to keep in mind—how much of the cultural text of "where the show ends" is really defined? I mean, doing a quick search on this forum and we still have people arguing about the validity of Seasons 1-2 as part of the "classic" era of the show.

I'm going to talk a little more here about the side where I come from (Latin America). But I think very few people are actually going to know about the existence of s1—or rather, know about its existence, but I think it's more likely that people won't recognize it when it's encompassed in the term "the first eight seasons are gold, the rest are shit." I mean unless you're a passionate fan of the show, few people are actually going to say which season or exactly what epsode a particular line, character, or moment comes from (most people are just going to recognize it as "the Poochie episode, Homer's mom episode, Kamp Krusty episode and so on..."). And in a certain way it will also apply to me (watch out there) when discussing when the program ends; most people won't tell you "season from when the canonical text of the program ends (just think about the many concepts we have; that the bad episodes are from when they go to HD, that the first seasons are good and the new ones are bad—without clarifying exactly which season that encompasses, that after the voice change is when the series was ruined, etc).

Been talking about the latter: the line here is that Seasons 1-15 are the "classic" era of the show—when the voice actors who originally voiced the characters left (which is a very stupid reason, but also fitting because many iconic moments of the show are thanks to it. Mainly because of Humberto Vélez's voice acting for the character of Homer). I don't know, I think it's more likely that there are still "iconic" moments and phrases, but not exactly a dividing line from when the show ends. One way to frame it, but... How much of Seasons 13-15 (at the time) was seen as an uptick in quality outside of places like the NHC or hardcore fans? And now, right now the stuff from the teen seasons (Seasons 13-19) is used as examples of at least being better than the HD era, or even people talking about how the series was still enjoyable at least until the switch to HD (I've done enough searching to know that there are a considerable number of people who still enjoy these early seasons of Jean to know that's an opinion worth considering.) I mean let's just look at the case of this forum—still with people (to this day) debating whether the Scully seasons are still worth considering as the classic era (s9 can be cited as a "consistent" point of break, but it does not invalidate that there are still people who consider s10, s12 or even s11 as part of it). I guess it's a difference from before when you'd say you liked an episode of Scully and you'd be completely trashed if you had a positive opinion about this era of the show (which I did a search on; it was very consistent, even with people saying something negative about the early seasons of Jean), to being something much more accepted and something that people are willing to bat for (even if it's just because they're funny and it raises an interesting point—about how people contribute to the show by interact with these moments of the program).

I think the generation gap is also an important factor. With people who grew up with the teen seasons and probably have a fondness (or soft spot) for these seasons, compared to an older fan who probably just sees these seasons as the time when "the show stopped being good." Another thing that maybe someone already noticed, but with the arrival of Disney+ there are probably even more people who have a different view of the show as a whole (something I actually remember being highlighted in a Variety article about "the simpsons are good at new" on younger viewers watching the series through it). Which is maybe just a percentage (maybe very small) but I think there are more chances today that there are people who are watching the show and are separated from the quality discourse of it online, than before where that was much more defined or it was much more consistent with sites that dissected the quality of the program or when it was a cultural 'boom'. Ultimately, I guess that's why it's hard for me to debate the "popular and canonical text" of the show for these and many other reasons (others already stated).

Just my two cents on the subject.

 

[CousinMerl]

Well, obviously something happened around season 15 because that's when viewership numbers took a nosedive.

It is interesting that the viewership went into a sharp decline during season 15, but judging by fan responses to the epsiodes (again, I'm using the rate & review threads as a consensus) at the time it and the other Jean seasons were seen as a big improvement over Scully and still tend to be said the high point of the post-classic Jean era, which leads me to guess the lousy viewership at least in part had something to do with many viewers having stood by the show were just getting fatigue more or less, not realy because of the quality being seen as bad.

Personally though, like a lot of others, I consider seasons 15 and 16 to be the closest the show ever came during the entire zombie period between season 11 to season 32 to being a decent show. 15 and 16 are certainly more standable than the obnoxcious headache that were the Scully and earliest Jean era seasons, or the absolute garveyard of both comedy and narrative stucture that came directly afterwards.

Curious to see you criticizing both season 13 & 14 heavily like that, when it is 14 and 15 tend to be singled out as the best of Jean's solo seasons after the classic era (and I guess 16 as well, but I've read many on these boards being more mixed on that one). But I do think that those four (14, 15 & 16) were the high point seasons of Jean's, having most of his best material outside the classics.

 

[Wile E. the Brain]

@Sandboy, I think you're on to something about the cultural differences between countries and the relationship of their respective fans with the series. I used to spend a lot of time on a french Simpsons forum, and out there, people were more forgiving to the beginning of post-classic Simpsons, up to season 15 ; even if we were aware it wasn't part of "classic Simpsons" (but for what it's worth, out there we tended to consider that the golden age lasted until season 10 included - and also, most of us tended to exclude season 1 because it looked like rough beginnings or something).

Outside of that sphere, I've seen more than enough french compilation of Simpsons bits to know that there are lots of french fans appreciating the aforementioned portion of post-classic Simpsons all the same. Hell, some really popular clips aren't from the golden age (I'm thinking of "Marge, I'm not gonna lie to you" from 'Milhouse Doesn't Live Here Anymore' especially - I'm aware it's a recycled gag, that's not my point). Of course, that might be vocal minority, just like it could be more casual fans, not as critical / overanalytical as most of us. As long as Homer was the funny man, I guess it didn't really matter that his character in season 11 was so different, conceptually, from the guy he was back in season 3.

I do believe said casual fans from all over the world have as much of an impact on the cultural discourse of the show as people like us. And yes, that makes it more difficult to fully discern.

 

[CousinMerl]

I do believe said casual fans from all over the world have as much of an impact on the cultural discourse of the show as people like us. And yes, that makes it more difficult to fully discern.

I also think one fact may be that some countries don't make as much of a definite distinction between many of the seasons and aren't as harsh and/or picky as the more die hard fans (most or many of us) and/or the original American audiences (who more often seem to draw the cut-off line for the classic era at season 8 or 9-ish and deeming the rest unworthy of attention and "Zombie Simpsons" at worst), hence why some fans in certain countries have been more open for the post-classic episodes, moments & jokes into the pop culture biosphere, discourse, etc.

Not saying this is a definite thing, but it is something that I have noticed in various discussions, such as outside this board.

 

[B-Boy]

I also think one fact may be that some countries don't make as much of a definite distinction between many of the season

Here in Australia, I would say the majority of people include most if not all of the Scully years.

 

[Invader Zim]

Season 13 was so bad
so yeah it was day 1

 

[CousinMerl]

Here in Australia, I would say the majority of people include most if not all of the Scully years.

That's interesting, but I'm thinking that is not unique to Australia.

But really, it is curious on how this and that country isn't as harsh and condemning of all post-classic Simpsons and I wonder why.

 

[Jackomon]

I also think one fact may be that some countries don't make as much of a definite distinction between many of the seasons and aren't as harsh and/or picky as the more die hard fans (most or many of us) and/or the original American audiences (who more often seem to draw the cut-off line for the classic era at season 8 or 9-ish and deeming the rest unworthy of attention and "Zombie Simpsons" at worst), hence why some fans in certain countries have been more open for the post-classic episodes, moments & jokes into the pop culture biosphere, discourse, etc.

I will say, while I'm not sure what its like in Ireland as a whole (if anything, its probably similar to that of the UK), I know for myself that prior to me joining this site, even before watching TheRealJims, I didn't really care as much for the different showrunners, as all the seasons were pretty similar to me, but as time has gone on, I have noticed differences, mainly thanks to TheRealJims and this site. I will say that I am curious to see if that opinion has changed much as I rewatch the series, as at one point I did look at Seasons 9-27 fondly just as much as I looked at the first 8 Seasons fondly, but, I have a feeling that has changed as time has gone on.

While Channel 4 would air Simpsons episodes in order most of the time, Sky 1 used to be a bit random with its selection, same with RTÉ Two (at least, from what I can remember). I will say that I do think it comes down more to a difference in how TV is perceived in Ireland compared to the US, or even compared to the UK (at least, where I live in Ireland, it is perceived differently).

To go off-topic a bit, I will say that Simpsons isn't the only series where there was a change but I barely noticed it, as Pokémon is another one as I barely noticed the change in VA during my childhood (although I do notice it these days).

 

[tall_guy1]

Season 17 was pretty good IMO. Seasons 16-19 had a similar feel, so I don't understand why that season gets singled out. I thought it kind of gradually started showing faults instead of it being immediate.

 

[FelixInTheFuture]

Definitely the 17th season. It feels off compared to the other seasons at the time. It slightly improved a bit during the early HD era, but went through another decline in quality sometimes during the 2010s.