Post Simpsons Frames you like

stryke said:
There really needs to be more discussion about Lisa's random guitar skills. It's not her instrument, it's not something she is usually shown to own like for example when her sax is stolen she needs to resort to a jug, and yet occasionally she'll bust out the classical gas like it ain't no thing.
Click to expand...
She’s probably skilled in many instruments, she just likes playing the saxophone the most
 
stryke said:
There really needs to be more discussion about Lisa's random guitar skills. It's not her instrument, it's not something she is usually shown to own like for example when her sax is stolen she needs to resort to a jug, and yet occasionally she'll bust out the classical gas like it ain't no thing.
Click to expand...
To be fair she's a virtuoso at the jug as well:
403819.jpg


SunnyHorizon_TheFox said:
She’s probably skilled in many instruments, she just likes playing the saxophone the most
Click to expand...
I think that's pretty much it. You see sometimes see her play different instruments in the opening as well like a violin or a harp and she always seems profficient at them too so I imagine her as a kind of musical prodigy that can turn her hand to any instrument she wants, but the sax is her favourite.
 
Last edited:
So what you're saying is that she's some kind of Mary Sue who doesn't need to train to be good at other musical insruments...

And that's about as far as I can get with that line of thinking without feeling my iq points drop significantly :D
 
stryke said:
So what you're saying is that she's some kind of Mary Sue who doesn't need to train to be good at other musical insruments...

And that's about as far as I can get with that line of thinking without feeling my iq points drop significantly :D
Click to expand...
Well I can't quite remember what a Mary Sue is to be honest, but it is true that she does seem to just naturally pick up any instrument. Look at her wailing that didgeridoo!
1024889.jpg


...Genuinely I can't think of any time she's picked up an instrument and not been able to play it.
 
I Love Lisa said:
Well I can't quite remember what a Mary Sue is to be honest, but it is true that she does seem to just naturally pick up any instrument. Look at her wailing that didgeridoo!
1024889.jpg


...Genuinely I can't think of any time she's picked up an instrument and not been able to play it.
Click to expand...
I bet Lisa inherited her love of music from Homer, which is why she’s good at it
 
I Love Lisa said:
Well I can't quite remember what a Mary Sue is to be honest, but it is true that she does seem to just naturally pick up any instrument. Look at her wailing that didgeridoo!
Click to expand...

Neither can anyone else on the internet based on the current state of the online discourse :D

(But my personal bugbear about how once useful terms that actually meant something specific get watered down to the point of useless general negativity is something that I try not to let bother me as much these days)
 
stryke said:
Neither can anyone else on the internet based on the current state of the online discourse :D

(But my personal bugbear about how once useful terms that actually meant something specific get watered down to the point of useless general negativity is something that I try not to let bother me as much these days)
Click to expand...
Ha ha it's not a term I think I've ever actually used so I'm not sure I've ever quite known what it meant to be honest. As far as I recall it refers to an original character in fanfiction that feels like an idealised author insert, but I'm sure there's something more to it.

(I do get what you mean about terms getting watered down though. "Flanderised" is a prime example I think where it often seems to be thrown around for any kind of character development that someone doesn't like these days)
 
Last edited:
I Love Lisa said:
Ha ha it's not a term I think I've ever actually used so I'm not sure I've ever quite known what it meant to be honest. As far as I recall it refers to a an original character in fanfiction that feels like an idealised author insert, but I'm sure there's something more to it.
Click to expand...
You pretty much got it spot on, the only thing missing was the extra details that they usually, but not always, had eyes of different colours, and was that they'd always be shipped with the main male character as a way to express the writer's own desires.

Looking back maybe it was a bit problematic too in how it was used by some then, as there was a certain air of 'how dare these girls invade our male fandoms, and they're only doing it cause they want to lock lips with Kirk, Goku, Sasuke, or whoever'. Sure, these fanfics and fanworks were often pretty bad, and it was useful to have a term for them so those not into such things could avoid them, but then plenty of first try fanfics are terrible anyway even with out a Mary Sue to be found. I know mine sure were.

I've certainly seen female creators do loving tributes to the concept as that was often how they got their start, and so want to poke fun at those days when they really didn't know what they were doing, but wanted to do it anyway cause being creative is awesome, so I don't think the term in the original form was entirely a bad thing like it is now where it's just 'I hate this fictional woman'.

I've also seen Casually Comics (great youtuber btw, definitely reccomended) suggest that she thinks that fanfic and related fanworks is in of itself a female dominated part of the phenomenon of fandoms which is why it has sometime been resented by guys in general as an invasion of their space. That I'm less certain on as I've often explored fandoms in that way, and not come across that kind of pushback before, but then again with the way online circles work so many discussions can happen that you'll miss entirely so I'm totally okay taking her word on that in regard to her own experiences of fandom.
 
stryke said:
You pretty much got it spot on, the only thing missing was the extra details that they usually, but not always, had eyes of different colours, and was that they'd always be shipped with the main male character as a way to express the writer's own desires.

Looking back maybe it was a bit problematic too in how it was used by some then, as there was a certain air of 'how dare these girls invade our male fandoms, and they're only doing it cause they want to lock lips with Kirk, Goku, Sasuke, or whoever'. Sure, these fanfics and fanworks were often pretty bad, and it was useful to have a term for them so those not into such things could avoid them, but then plenty of first try fanfics are terrible anyway even with out a Mary Sue to be found. I know mine sure were.

I've certainly seen female creators do loving tributes to the concept as that was often how they got their start, and so want to poke fun at those days when they really didn't know what they were doing, but wanted to do it anyway cause being creative is awesome, so I don't think the term in the original form was entirely a bad thing like it is now where it's just 'I hate this fictional woman'.

I've also seen Casually Comics (great youtuber btw, definitely reccomended) suggest that she thinks that fanfic and related fanworks is in of itself a female dominated part of the phenomenon of fandoms which is why it has sometime been resented by guys in general as an invasion of their space. That I'm less certain on as I've often explored fandoms in that way, and not come across that kind of pushback before, but then again with the way online circles work so many discussions can happen that you'll miss entirely so I'm totally okay taking her word on that in regard to her own experiences of fandom.
Click to expand...
Ah well fanfiction is a part of fandom I've never been particularly involved in so it's no surprise I have slightly imperfect grasp of its terms. It means I can't really comment on the idea of it being something that some guys resent girls getting involved in either, but I can absolutely see that for sure. There are plenty of places out there on the internet where certain people want to essentially hang a virtual childish "no girlz allowed" sign (just look at how some men in gaming communities get genuinely angry at the idea of girls joining in on their hobby! :( ) so I can easily imagine a particular type of lad getting worked up when a bunch of lasses started posting fanfiction. What I can't understand is why those people are so threatened by having anyone female around anyway. :confused:

Honestly it does all seem a bit problematic from how you describe it and "Mary Sue" as I often see it does seem to usually translate to "girl someone doesn't like". I do like your more positive take on the original fanfiction meaning and how the "Mary Sue" would mostly just be used by new creators finding their feet as well! As I see it if male creators can make trashy stuff sexualising female characters then female ones are perfectly entitled to write about snogging anime characters or whatever. Gotta have the same standards for everyone!

(Also when you wrote about girls wanting "to lock lips with Kirk" I thought you meant Kirk van Houten which got a rather undignified snort of laughter out of me :lol: )

Curse You Magic Beans said:
View attachment 8439 Geez Season 4 sure was obsessed about Lisa's Guitar Skills
Click to expand...
She just liked to jam back then!
 
I Love Lisa said:
As I see it if male creators can make trashy stuff sexualising female characters then female ones are perfectly entitled to write about snogging anime characters or whatever. Gotta have the same standards for everyone!
Click to expand...
My thoughts exactly. Preach it for the harder of hearing at the back.

Alas it was not Bart's friend's dad, but in refference to the Captain of the starship Enterprise :D

Don't quote me as I believe this is heavily debated but I've heard some people say the term Mary Sue first showed up in Star Trek fanfic discussion before spreading outward like the term 'slash' did for shipping.
 
stryke said:
Don't quote me as I believe this is heavily debated but I've heard some people say the term Mary Sue first showed up in Star Trek fanfic discussion before spreading outward like the term 'slash' did for shipping.
Click to expand...

I think it was coined as a specific parody of that character archetype that didn't have a name yet... and yeah really wish it had a gender-neutral term first. No, having "Gary-Stu" for male examples isn't good enough (for a start... what would you call a nonbinary version? :V)

Anyway I'd say that things like Lisa just randomly being good at other instruments is fine. Stuff like that is no problem. If anything it'd kill the pace (or be a funny gag) if we had her hurriedly research guitar-playing. In Whacking Day it's also not like most of the plan wasn't Bart's idea... funny, you'd expect it to be the other way around usually! And tbh self-shipping on its own is a non-issue... depending on who it's with.

I'd say these kinds of characters are only really a problem when they become disruptive to the rest of the cast or story. Like if their attributes are pushed way too far or we have people randomly sing their praises (or even people who dislike them will essentially dislike them because they're just so gosh-darn amazing and perfect or something else that's ultimately praise) or when other characters start being sidelined/shaved/upstaged down to make them look good or their enemies coincidentally tend to suffer a lot compared to anyone else's and so on. In that sense, most of these characters I'd call black-hole characters or something because in a fair few cases there's nothing actually wrong with them in a bubble, it's how everything else is bent around them... really wish there was a popular term that wasn't a sexism-magnet.

So yeah, no problems really with the Lisa and instruments thing in Whacking Day and Bart Vs Australia.


Anyway, shots, yes. Did I already do this one?

1713564552437.png
 
Last edited:
Venomrabbit said:
I think it was coined as a specific parody of that character archetype that didn't have a name yet... and yeah really wish it had a gender-neutral term first. No, having "Gary-Stu" for male examples isn't good enough (for a start... what would you call a nonbinary version? :V)

Anyway I'd say that things like Lisa just randomly being good at other instruments is fine. Stuff like that is no problem. If anything it'd kill the pace (or be a funny gag) if we had her hurriedly research guitar-playing. In Whacking Day it's also not like most of the plan wasn't Bart's idea... funny, you'd expect it to be the other way around usually! And tbh self-shipping on its own is a non-issue... depending on who it's with.
Click to expand...
It's only relatively recently that Gary-Stu has popped up while Mary Sue is decades old now at least. I've got a physical comic somewhere from the last 90's/early 00's that was one of the loving spoofs I mentioned making it much older even than that. It used to be so specific that it was a character archetype that was a lady, and would get with who ever was the male hottie of the day to fulfil the fantasy of the lady writer. That was, as it were, the whole point of the type.

Gary-Stu being a thing is due to Mary Sue gradually morphing into a more general negative takedown of a female character who is good at everything description which made people think their should be a male equivalent. Rey, likely the character most called a Mary Sue to date, is not one in the slightest in the traditional usage of the term due to her not getting on with an existing male character like Luke or Han, and instead having a villainous draco in leather pants supporting character invented for her to romance. Her eyes are even the same colour, c'mon :D

Oh yeah for sure Lisa being randomly also good at guitar is fine, and I was just amused by it being a bit random. I hoped my comment about losing IQ points and the smiley made clear that I was deliberately making a dumb comment for humour purposes.

And sure I'm talking in general about how this has been discussed and been a thing in fandom over the years without assigning a value judgement myself. As I said I've written fanfic myself and some of it was not good in the slightest. If anything I prefer self insert shipping to the usual alternative which is warping an existing character into being the author surrogate as it's a lot more honest. Then again I get why people do it though as there's such a stigma to using OC's that people are much less likely to give your fic a chance in the first place.
 
~off topic ish~
I used to write dbz fanfic when I was a teen. Goten and Marron were married and had a son named Koshō (pepper). He went to kindergarten with a Namekian named Fife who Dende accidentally gave birth to/laid an egg (Piccolo named him.) Fife was the Bart Simpson-y 'bad boy' who talked meek Koshō (basically classic Milhouse if he could fire kamehameha) into misbehaving at school. These were absolutely not great stories and the romance of Koshō's parents was secondary to the focus on OC school adventures but they helped me grow as a writer. I still create OCs sometimes but now they are the side characters and the canon relationships are explored in greater depths. I am not the least bit insulted by Gary Stu accusations, lol.
 
I Love Lisa said:
I think that's pretty much it. You see sometimes see her play different instruments in the opening as well like a violin or a harp and she always seems profficient at them too so I imagine her as a kind of musical prodigy that can turn her hand to any instrument she wants, but the sax is her favourite.
Click to expand...
Interesting anecdote there, but Lisa's saxophone was specifically chosen to highlight her individuality. That's been talked about in interviews.
 
stryke said:
My thoughts exactly. Preach it for the harder of hearing at the back.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately I feel like the people at the back are those who'd be least receptive to being preached to by a woman. :sigh:

stryke said:
Alas it was not Bart's friend's dad, but in refference to the Captain of the starship Enterprise :D
Click to expand...
Ha ha yeah I guessed that after a minute when I remembered that you're a Star Trek fan (at least I think you are?). Poor old Simpsons Kirk though with the idea of romantic fiction about him making me laugh. Don't worry Milhouse's dad! There must be some girl out there who fancies locking lips with you I'm sure.

stryke said:
Oh yeah for sure Lisa being randomly also good at guitar is fine, and I was just amused by it being a bit random. I hoped my comment about losing IQ points and the smiley made clear that I was deliberately making a dumb comment for humour purposes.
Click to expand...
As the person that comment was directed at I just want to clarify that yes that was very clear so no worries there. In fact I think it's really neat that my posting a picture of Lisa playing the bass has led to a genuinely interesting discussion where I'm actually learning something about a world I knew little about!

MisogiKurakawa said:
Interesting anecdote there, but Lisa's saxophone was specifically chosen to highlight her individuality. That's been talked about in interviews.
Click to expand...
Is that a fact? I've not come across those interviews, but it makes a lot of sense and the saxophone does definitely seem a perfect fit for her as a character.
 
Venomrabbit said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1187965930912923651

Well, it might've been that she was given a saxophone to make her unique since the above showed they had no idea what to do from the Ulman shorts alone...
Click to expand...
Oh my gosh what a great find! It's clear that a lot of work was done between the shorts and the series itself to make Lisa into an actual character of her own and it's really interesting to see some of the behind the scenes stuff from back then. Interesting that it was apparently discussions about the title sequence that led to her development (although I suppose that makes sense since it's likely one of the first things they worked on) and it sounds like I've got a lot to be grateful to James L. Brooks for for making Lisa who she is! :lisa:

Plus the actual concept art is really neat to see as well. Interesting to imagine how different things would've been with Lisa the ballerina instead of the saxophonist.
 
I think my favourite part is that Silverman implies the ballet intro to be kind of a lampshade-hanging, like "hey I got nothin' to work with here, can someone give her a character?" and then someone did.

I guess in that sense, she is a bit of a miracle! Or that subtle snark gets results.
 
Ballerina Lisa is so cool but the real MVP of that sequence is turtle with fez. When's he gonna be canonized?
 
I Love Lisa said:
Oh my gosh what a great find! It's clear that a lot of work was done between the shorts and the series itself to make Lisa into an actual character of her own and it's really interesting to see some of the behind the scenes stuff from back then. Interesting that it was apparently discussions about the title sequence that led to her development (although I suppose that makes sense since it's likely one of the first things they worked on) and it sounds like I've got a lot to be grateful to James L. Brooks for for making Lisa who she is! :lisa:

Plus the actual concept art is really neat to see as well. Interesting to imagine how different things would've been with Lisa the ballerina instead of the saxophonist.
Click to expand...
Brooks was apparently the one who thought of "You Are Lisa Simpson" as well.
 
Venomrabbit said:
I think my favourite part is that Silverman implies the ballet intro to be kind of a lampshade-hanging, like "hey I got nothin' to work with here, can someone give her a character?" and then someone did.

I guess in that sense, she is a bit of a miracle! Or that subtle snark gets results.
Click to expand...
It certainly did seem to be an effective way to push the issue at any rate. I suppose Lisa as one of the four main cast members was always going to end up as fully developed character of her own anyway, but this seemed to expedite her progress for sure.

Also I would definitely call Lisa a bit of a miracle with how they ended up creating the most wonderful character in television! (I am fully aware that I'm speaking from an incredibly biased point of view here, but I make no apology for it :P )

stryke said:
I don't know why but that first Lisa panel is wigging me the eff right out. It's like Stepford Lisa, freaky and indeed deaky.
Click to expand...
I kinda know what you mean actually. I think it's how unusually defined her legs are.
 
Jackomon said:
Agreed. Honestly, that scene just reminds me of why I don't like Mr. Taylor
Click to expand...
I don't think anyone likes Mr. Taylor. He's a condescending snob in his little screen time. Still hate Bart's kindergarten teacher more.
 
GlitterCat said:
I don't think anyone likes Mr. Taylor. He's a condescending snob in his little screen time. Still hate Bart's kindergarten teacher more.
Click to expand...
Fair point. The only person that I know liked him was LS Mark, for both his reviews of Lisa's Rival & The Girl on the Bus in his ranking video, he states that he likes the kids parents, but doesn't say anything about the kids (therefore, why I generally believe a lot of casual Simpsons fans don't care for the kid characters unless they are Bart, Lisa, Milhouse, Nelson, Ralph or Martin).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top