Meta Analysis and Narrative Infrastructure Thread

[CousinMerl]

I think both @MisogiKurakawa and @I Love Lisa make good points on Lisa and her "friends" (more or less), but it is definitely more of a subjective thing so I can understand both sides in this matter, in all honesty.

As for me, I don't think Lisa was initially meant to have zero friends (as we've seen in the classic era she's had friends every now and then and been part of some group; She usually hung out with Janey but also others but have also had sleepovers, as we saw in 'Flaming Moe's), but I think it is important to note and realize that while she has had some companions and friends in those dayss, they probably weren't intended to mean that she has close friends or a best friend in the truest sense, as most of her seemingly friends are more like fair-weather friends (heck, I'd say those whom Lisa was with at some point or another are more or less just that) and as we've seen in other episodes, a lot of other girls treat her as an outsider due to her opinions and intellect (that may have given some the wrong ideas).

But the more time went by, especially as the show moved on past the classic first eight or so seasons, the writers and showrunners took Lisa in a direction to emphasize how lonely she is and have a harder time making personal connections, such as becoming friends with girls of her age, and that seem to have made her isolate herself more from social circles and exhibit some troubling behavior, displaying a lot of impossibly high standards when it comes to friends, having a hard time opening up or trying to be more social and accepting of others (and at worst sitting on kind of a high horse, seeing herself as more or less "above them", thinking that no friend is good for her).

I think it's a shame that they have put so much emphasis on Lisa becoming the perpetual loner, isolating her from any potential friendships that could be possible, but at the same time I think that Lisa being the odd one out with no real close friends has kind of been a staple since the start, but her lack of socializing with others, even the usual fair-weather friends or being allowed into a friend group (even if the other members don't think much of her), is something that has been dialed back to nothingness, which is a glaring difference.

The latter may be something that has caused many fans want to see Lisa being less of the lonely one with no friends but make some connection with at least some girl and try having a meaningful friendship that isn't some superficial fair-weather thingy (and as has been argued before in other threads, I think this can be done without tearing down the aspect of Lisa being the social outsider; such as maybe finding a friend in someone else whom is an outcast, maybe a new girl whom is repeatedly ignored and afraid to speak up?).

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

Hmm I'm not so sure about this myself. Speaking from my own personal experience part of the reason Lisa imprinted on me so heavily was that I really, really connected with her as a child. Seeing a girl in my favourite show who didn't really fit in with the other kids her age, seeming to lack any meaningful friendships and living somewhat on the outside of school society made a genuine impression on me because I saw myself in that. I was no super smart kid and I barely had any defined ideals at that age let alone any I was willing to fight for like she does, but in a lot of ways me at age 8 was a lot like Lisa at age 8 and I just indentified so hard with the young social outcast thing in particular. The important thing in the context of this post though is when this was happening.

What was airing when I was 8? Seasons 11/12 I believe, but new episodes didn't exist for me back then. I only ever got repeats of older ones, so I was exclusively watching classic era stuff (my earliest memory of watching a "new" episode is Das Bus, but in hindsight that was actually several years after it first aired) yet I still picked up the idea of Lisa as a girl my age who didn't really have friends enough to grow sincerely attached to her as someone in a similar (essentially non-existant) social situation to me. Coming from all that personal history of mine, I really don't agree with the assertion that "friendless Lisa" wasn't a thing then and is an invention of the post-classic era. The literal "no friends" thing in particular has been more emphasised from time to time in the latter years, true, but I'd argue very much that "no real friends" and lonely Lisa have been a thing from the very start.


This Dancin' Homer scene is probably the most famous example of Lisa's friendlessness from the classic era (and a quote I have mentioned before as one that really resonated for me as a kid myself) and I feel your reading of it isn't quite right. Yes, she doesn't say that she's not friends with them, but she doesn't say that she is friends with them either. Janey aside, these are girls we never (or rarely) see her interact with again so the impression to me is that these are meant to just be random other girls at school who she doesn't actually know (maybe friends of Janey's?) that she gives her statement to because there's nobody for her to meaningfully say goodbye to but still felt a need to say something. She's not part of this group. She knows it and they know it (even Janey knows it), but they're still the people she addresses when she leaves which suggests that there just isn't anyone to say a real goodbye to.

Janey's coming up a fair amount here though, so she is worth going a bit more into. She is indeed listed as "Lisa's best friend" and there are those moments of friendliness between them that you mention (and a few more besides) so one thing is clear that "Lisa's friend" is the role she was created to fill in the show. The wrinkle here is that that role is a very minor one and always has been. She's there for when Lisa needs to talk to another girl and really, that's as far as their relationship goes. She's the girl sat on the neighbouring desk, someone she might sit next to at lunch sometimes or occassionally see outside of school even, but is there a proper friendship there? Probably not. They're obstentially friends and would call each other "friends" but are more acquaintances really and Janey clearly isn't a girl who understands Lisa and never was. Take this from Moaning Lisa, Lisa's very first spotlight episode for example:

Lisa's bearing her soul there and what's Janey doing? Totally ignoring her and will only actually speak to her when the food fight started and she tries to egg her into throing her spaghetti. The two of them are sat together as friends would be, but there's no meaningful connection there, they're just... kids who happen to know each other a little. I think it's quite clever on the part of the writers actually because I remember having supposed "friends" just like Janey at that age who actually I had nothing in common with and with whom I only ever had surface level interactions. "Friends" that sort of drift away when you get a bit older because you were never really friends in the first place (which could explain her fizzling out from the series - although there was one line in Do the Wrong Thing which suggests that Janey's still there taking up that small place in Lisa's life). The fact that Lisa's apparent best friend is someone like that only serves to accentuate her loneliness in the school and it's a very subtle detail that's used to great effect in Moaning Lisa and later episodes as well.

("Best friend" Janey shooting Lisa a glare for being excited for a test whilst Lisa herself realises no-one else shares her exctiment)

In fact, Moaning Lisa is a good example to use for this topic further because, as her first episode, it sets up a lot of who Lisa is and her what her place in the wider world is. Can we say the idea of her being ostracised amongst her peers for her beliefs and interests is a more modern phenomena when we have moments like this in her initial story?

Nor is this sort of thing contained to Moaning Lisa either. Here's some very specific picking on poor Lisa for her smarts from Lisa's Rival:

And the scene where she confronts the other girls in Lisa vs. Malibu Stacey fits the same sort of mould as well. Lisa isn't part of the group playing with the dolls, she confronts them (calling them "you people" instead of something more familiar and friendly), fails to communicate her point to them and only ends up getting giggled at for saying a "dirty word". She stands alone in that whole episode (besides Stacey's support that is) and the whole thing is kind of symptomatic of how her beliefs and convictions set her outside from her peers really.

There are scenes like the sleepover and visits to Janey's house of course, but, you know, I used to occassionally go to other kids houses and even have parties at my house with most of my class invited, then continue to have essentially nothing to do with them afterwards. From my experience, these are just things that kids do (or maybe did in those days?), having get-togthers and playdates with people who aren't actually friends just because they're in your class or something. And another thing that rings true to my experience is the thing about Lisa hanging out with Bart and his friends. As a kid I remember spending a lot of time hanging around my older brother and his buddies in lieu of having my own friends my own age. I think that's just something a lot of younger siblings do and it actually speaks to an inability to form friendships with your own classmates if you're milling around with older kids through a brother. (I also realise I'm quoting my own life a lot here, but my experience is important to understanding my viewpoint I think)

So yeah I don't think Lisa was ever meant to be friendless no, she does have social interactions even if they can be slight, but lacking in real friends entirely of her own? Absolutely. Unfortunately for her (I'd have been her friend in a heartbeat when I was little!) being kind of isolated and alone in her world and her convictions is a big part of who she is and it's always been that way. Even more unfortunately for her, she's always known it as well.

(A line that makes you giggle, but tugs at your heartstrings and makes you want to give her a reassuring hug at the same time. Sums up a lot of what's great about Lisa actually!)

Excellent post!

You are absolutely right that Lisa was never shown as having a close social circle, and she is shown being harassed and picked on (something which actually feels more authentic than with Bart, I'd note). My point was more that she was generally never implied to be an outcast, as much as just....a normal girl. That's a pretty stark difference to how she has been often characterized post-classic, and to me it also recontextualizes the "Lisa friend" stories and their propensity for emphasizing Lisa's friendlessness as "significant". Because the concept of Lisa having a friend was, in Classic, generally not meant as an inherently significant deal. Her relationships with Ralph and Allison are significant because of who they are to here, not that she suddenly, magically has a super-friend to also hang out with.

Does that make sense?

 

[GlitterCat]

Classic Lisa got Valentines, Ralph was the outcast she felt sorry for and shared a card out of pity. Modern Lisa would probably complain about the over commercialization of Valentine's and ruin it just like she ruined Love Day.

...I'm somewhat joking Lisa fans. I still like the character, but prefer when she is sensitive and empathetic and not sounding like a jaded college graduate with a liberal arts degree, a mountain of debt, and whose only relationships are tinged with regret.

 

[I Love Lisa]

Reading your side of things in regards to Lisa is interesting (its why I reacted with the munch reaction as its the closest there is to a thinking/thoughtful reaction).

Glad you find it interesting! I don't pretend to be an authority on Lisa or anything like that (just someone who thinks about this stuff perhaps a bit too much ) so my thoughts being interesting is all I really hope for. (Also I rather like that use of the munch reaction!)

I am with Misogi when it comes to the Lisa not been friendless argument, but I do understand where your coming from, while reading, it made me look back at my own friends, its pretty a pretty similar story. And when you throw social media like Facebook into that, it is harder to tell who are and aren't your friends, especially when some of them have over 1,000 friends on FB like its some competition.

Ah yeah Facebook and stuff would make it all much harder I'm sure. I'm a frigthful old maid by internet standards so the time I'm talking about when I was a kid social media didn't exist (we didn't even have a computer in my house until I was about 13), but I can definitely imagine childhood friendships and all that being made much more difficult by it.

What I will say in regards to Lisa and her friends/not friends as well is that personally I did finally make genuine friends of my own when I went to senior school so if she's on the same track as me, then she'll be socially fine by the time she's about 11/12.

Excellent post!

You are absolutely right that Lisa was never shown as having a close social circle, and she is shown being harassed and picked on (something which actually feels more authentic than with Bart, I'd note). My point was more that she was generally never implied to be an outcast, as much as just....a normal girl. That's a pretty stark difference to how she has been often characterized post-classic, and to me it also recontextualizes the "Lisa friend" stories and their propensity for emphasizing Lisa's friendlessness as "significant". Because the concept of Lisa having a friend was, in Classic, generally not meant as an inherently significant deal. Her relationships with Ralph and Allison are significant because of who they are to here, not that she suddenly, magically has a super-friend to also hang out with.

Does that make sense?

First of all thank you! And yeah that does make sense, particularly about Ralph and Allison. You are very right that there's no special deal made of them just because they're potential new friends for Lisa, especially since neither episode is actually about Lisa making friends with them. In I Love Lisa she spends most of it trying to avoid Ralph out of discomfort and embarrassment and Lisa's Rival's mostly focused on how Allison's existence itself troubles her. As you said in your earlier post, her becoming friendly with them is something that happens at the end as a kind of reward for getting through her issues in the plot.

To add a little more explanation to my point though, I'm not trying to argue that Lisa was ever literally friendless because that is demonstrably untrue. Shallow and fragile as it can be, she does have social interaction, it's just that she's never had a real friend of her own. She clearly is in Bart's social circle to an extent, but that's by proxy of being his sister, not a friendship group of her own, Ralph I do think she is consistently portrayed throughout the series (not just the classic era) as being friendly with but there are ultimately limits to how much of a friend she can be with Ralph considering how very different they are as people and there is Janey as well. Janey being the only other girl Lisa is regularly seen with (well not exactly regularly considering the scant screentime she gets, but as regular as it gets for a Lisa friend) and the only kid character who's there solely in relation to Lisa, but can we call her a real friend when a majority of her appearances (I feel at least) show her just not understanding Lisa or hanging out with others and joining in on the laughing at her (including in the classic era)? I really don't think we can. Lisa's pal numbers aren't zero no, but meaningfully they might as well be and that's always been the case.

The poor girl's not a total outcast but she's not that far off it and that's implied many times in the classic years. I think the distinction between that and the post-classic years is simply that more of a thing is made of her social isolation from time to time, but I do think the extent of how exaggerated it becomes can get kinda exaggerated too because it's mostly just apparent in "Lisa gets a friend" episodes specifically. I think that she remains as she was. Not quite a normal girl, but a normal lonely girl rather than a chronically lonely girl, if that makes any sense? "Lisa gets a friend" stuff still makes sense with that reading to me because I feel like her excitement at meeting these new girls doesn't come from having someone to talk to when she's had no-one before, but from the hope that she might be able to make a real, lasting genuine friend rather then an on-off friendly acquaintance like Janey.

But the more time went by, especially as the show moved on past the classic first eight or so seasons, the writers and showrunners took Lisa in a direction to emphasize how lonely she is and have a harder time making personal connections, such as becoming friends with girls of her age, and that seem to have made her isolate herself more from social circles and exhibit some troubling behavior, displaying a lot of impossibly high standards when it comes to friends, having a hard time opening up or trying to be more social and accepting of others (and at worst sitting on kind of a high horse, seeing herself as more or less "above them", thinking that no friend is good for her).

I'm sorry to disagree here, but I'm genuinely really struggling to think of any times Lisa gets on a high horse and puts herself "above" any potential friends? The nearest I can think is her running away when Tumi mentioned eating horse, but that seemed a perfectly natural reaction for an 8 year old vegetarian pony lover. My impression is that she always seems very open to connecting with new people and her peers and generally accepting of their differences, but it usually just doesn't work out for whatever reason.

 

[Jackomon]

The nearest I can think is her running away when Tumi mentioned eating horse, but that seemed a perfectly natural reaction for an 8 year old vegetarian pony lover.

In regards to that scene, for the longest time, I thought Lisa ditched Tumi due to the latter eating raw horse.

However, thanks to @NoSecretsSpringfieldGirls, who had another interpretation, Lisa could of easily gone to be sick, as she is a vegetarian and a pony lover.

 

[I Love Lisa]

In regards to that scene, for the longest time, I thought Lisa ditched Tumi due to the latter eating raw horse.

However, thanks to @NoSecretsSpringfieldGirls, who had another interpretation, Lisa could of easily gone to be sick, as she is a vegetarian and a pony lover.

That's an interesting thought actually. Although if Tumi does something that makes her sick, then it'd be hard for Lisa to stay friends with her!

 

[CousinMerl]

I'm sorry to disagree here, but I'm genuinely really struggling to think of any times Lisa gets on a high horse and puts herself "above" any potential friends? The nearest I can think is her running away when Tumi mentioned eating horse, but that seemed a perfectly natural reaction for an 8 year old vegetarian pony lover. My impression is that she always seems very open to connecting with new people and her peers and generally accepting of their differences, but it usually just doesn't work out for whatever reason.

I kind of understood you'd jump at this defensively (and I think you misunderstand me due to wording), but I'll try to explain:

I do remember Lisa having gotten on a high horse a bit a few times in the HD era (Al Jean episodes, really) but I have no immediate instances to cite. Your example there is something I do recall, but it was not the kind of reaction I was talking of at all (that one was very much understandable), but rather some other actual instances where she has been acting a bit strangely with the abeformentioned. I don't mean that she sees himself as superior to everyone else, but rather that she fails to see flaws in others as something natural & possibly a good thing, wanting a friend who's the perfect one for her and her general tastes and interests and whatnot, accepting no substitutes.

Maybe the wording of "high horse" is a bit too too harsh (and don't take my usage of it too seriously), but sometimes when she's been at her most socially self-isolated (and probably at her most negative portrayal in the HD era), she do seem to impose some unfairly high restrictions and standards on potential friends and find this or that thing that prevent her from connecting, judging some one-offs due to this or that reason, sometimes due to her own tastes (I'm thinking of Isabel Gutierrez and her opposite political stance which Lisa saw as a roadbloack, but they learnt to put the politics aside and still be friends... and obviously, it isn't followed up later. Figures)

I'm not at all saying that she's like this all the time and she has indeed been open to connecting to others every now and then (even though she hasn't been successful), but sometimes, there seem to be her anxieties and insecurities at play and those have, at worst, manifested themselves in those higher standards, maybe out of her own self-defense as she's so used to being rejected so she withdraws and want to get a friend whom is the perfectly ideal match for her from top to bottom & wont abandon or hurt her in any way, but be perfect (which kind of goes to show those "high horse" standards I'm speaking of, so it's not about Lisa being an arrogant jackass or something!)

It doesn't mean Lisa is a bad person at all, but her less than good experiences with various other girls, with no one wanting to be a friend to her long-term or anything, have impacted her and her social skills negatively a fair bit & she can, again at worst, seem like someone with a really high bar set for possible friends (or just be too picky and seeing hindrances here and there). She more or less starts building barriers and see potential problems when she rather should be more open and accepting of things like personal flaws and such (and find that a friend doesn't need to be all perfect or something & that some flaws are important) & test the ground a littlemore.

I think that if she finds a flawed friend whos a bit of an outcast/loner like her, she may indeed connect well. So yeah, she's not riding that high horse like some haughty impossible kid, but as an socially-impaired, awkward and isolated kid whom has had bad experience with friends and after so much time of loneliness an no personal connections to similar-aged kids & feeling beaten down & frustrated, on occasion ending up acting in ways that hamper her friendless situation more. It show even more that she's such a complex character.

I hope that clears it up a bit.

 

[I Love Lisa]

I kind of understood you'd jump at this defensively (and I think you misunderstand me due to wording), but I'll try to explain:

Ha ha I can be very defensive when it comes to Lisa that's true. I guess I've got used to sticking up for her over the years when there's a lot of haters out there so I can be a bit quick to jump to her defence and I do apologise about that because I see I genuinely misunderstood what you meant! Your post clears it up a lot and I do actually agree with most of what you're saying about her wanting a "perfect" friend as a result of her bad past experiences and everything. There's quite a lot of plots about Lisa clashing with someone over a difference of opinion or something after all! (Although I do think that one of the nice things about her is that she does usually learn her lesson about respecting other peoples differences and viewpoints and so on and always ends a conflict on good terms with whoever she was fighting with)

I do think this thing about a friendship having to be "perfect" in her mind (presumably because of her being burned by "imperfect" ones in the past) also ties in with something else @MisogiKurakawa was saying about her romantic relationships as well. How a potential boyfriend seems to have to fit the unrealistic mould of a "perfect" boy for her. Although really since she is such a young child that shouldn't have to be an issue for her at all, so I think all that reflects more on how the (mostly male) writers approach the idea of female-led romance stories and sort of bolt those vague second-hand concepts onto Lisa as "the girl". I certainly wasn't thinking about boys and romance in any way when I was 8 so I don't know why she would be!

So yeah, she's not riding that high horse like some haughty impossible kid, but as an socially-impaired, awkward and isolated kid whom has had bad experience with friends and after so much time of loneliness an no personal connections to similar-aged kids & feeling beaten down & frustrated, on occasion ending up acting in ways that hamper her friendless situation more. It show even more that she's such a complex character.

This is a really lovely way to put it actually! I really don't like it when people characterise Lisa as an aloof, uptight character who looks down her nose at everyone all the time because that's just not true. She's someone who has genuine problems with socialising and connecting with people who's had a lot of issues with that in the past that seem to kind of haunt her and who always tries to be tolerant, improve herself and get past her issues (even if she doesn't necessarily succeed). She deserves a lot of sympathy and patience for all that, not to be scorned as some kind of unlikeable, intolerant narcissist which she really isn't... So yeah nice summation of her complexities!

 

[Meko]

I certainly wasn't thinking about boys and romance in any way when I was 8 so I don't know why she would be!

i feel like the writers really regret not making lisa and bart teens from the start, cause making romance plots with an 8 year old is just......odd

 

[Brad Lascelle]

On the issue of the final Tumi scene, I put all of the blame on Tumi there. It's one thing for Lisa to be tolerant and accepting of other people's quirks/habits/tendencies... but that consideration needs to apply both ways. That Tumi... knowing that Lisa was upset with her for being dishonest and taking bribes from her mother AND knowing that she's a devout vegetarian would be so thoughtless as to even approach pitching "have you ever tried horse meat" as her "let's stay friends" icebreaker just shows someone completely devoid of self-awareness that Lisa was right to flee the scene out of nausea/disgust and leave her high and dry.

If I'm giving Lisa any flak for not extending herself more for a relationship she had legitimately invested in, it's that she bailed on Juliet and cut her out of her life far too hastily. She may have been a little too attached to her reality escapism... but hey, you can say the same thing about Diggs and Bart didn't drop him like a bad habit.

 

[I Love Lisa]

i feel like the writers really regret not making lisa and bart teens from the start, cause making romance plots with an 8 year old is just......odd

I wonder how different the show would have turned out if they were teens...? Definitely wouldn't have been as good at the very least. Maybe they could just leave out the romance plots for Lisa and use other characters (or just future episodes like Lisa's Wedding) to scratch that romantic itch? (It is also worth mentioning that a lot of Bart's romance plots are odd as well of course)

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

i feel like the writers really regret not making lisa and bart teens from the start, cause making romance plots with an 8 year old is just......odd

Thing is, the classic series implicitly kinda understood this. None of the Bart/Lisa love interest plots are actually romance plots, because any romance literally never starts. The closest is Bart's Friend Falls in Love, but it's pretty heavily implied that's the onset of puberty talking, which is pretty normal for kids (not to the degree of repeat kissing that Milhouse and Samantha go at, but the story does make clear they're not going any further). It's only really when you unpack the actual mechanics of Lisa's interest in boys do things start to become odd....something which would only compound on itself over time.

I would say The Bart Wants What It Wants is the big turning point, fitting given it being in Jean's first season. Not only does it take the relationship jarringly seriously (Lisa effectively shames Bart for not paying attention to Greta's feelings....despite him being 10), but Greta herself isn't characterized in a way to match with Bart at all. She's basically given zero personality whatsoever outside of liking him, highlighting that this isn't actually a story meant to explore Bart as a character whatsoever - just a stock romance plot he's been awkwardly forced into.

 

[CousinMerl]

Ha ha I can be very defensive when it comes to Lisa that's true. I guess I've got used to sticking up for her over the years when there's a lot of haters out there so I can be a bit quick to jump to her defence and I do apologise about that because I see I genuinely misunderstood what you meant!

Hey, no worries! I understand why you'd so quickly jump to defending her and I understand why'd you'd overreact. I often hope that people understand what I write and do feel a bit bad whenver I end up making someone upset or angry due to them misunderstanding me, but it tend to be sorted out when I elaborate a bit, such as this time.

Your post clears it up a lot and I do actually agree with most of what you're saying about her wanting a "perfect" friend as a result of her bad past experiences and everything. There's quite a lot of plots about Lisa clashing with someone over a difference of opinion or something after all! (Although I do think that one of the nice things about her is that she does usually learn her lesson about respecting other peoples differences and viewpoints and so on and always ends a conflict on good terms with whoever she was fighting with)

I'm glad to know you understand my viewpoints regarding this topic on Lisa now & do see why she has implemented her high standards due to bad past regarding friendship and socialization, which not only led to what I've been saying with the clashing of opinions and being picky and whatnot, but also have made her be a bit too hasty in judging someone and not having patience to see if his one kid may be a good friend, but yeah, considering her bad experiences in the friendshop and social field, I get where she's coming from.

I do think this thing about a friendship having to be "perfect" in her mind (presumably because of her being burned by "imperfect" ones in the past) also ties in with something else @MisogiKurakawa was saying about her romantic relationships as well. How a potential boyfriend seems to have to fit the unrealistic mould of a "perfect" boy for her. Although really since she is such a young child that shouldn't have to be an issue for her at all, so I think all that reflects more on how the (mostly male) writers approach the idea of female-led romance stories and sort of bolt those vague second-hand concepts onto Lisa as "the girl". I certainly wasn't thinking about boys and romance in any way when I was 8 so I don't know why she would be!

That certainly do feel connected and I agree about that, even if friendship and romantic relationship are clearly different things. Though yeah, she do seem to have a unrealistic standards of how a perfect boy should be, although here she is more willing to experiment (as we've seen, with her drawn to a variety of boys) so it is not the same high standards as when it comes to friends, oddly enough.

I guess that too do reflect the views of the male writers and their ideas of female-led romance stories (and they have in part seemed more fond of those for Lisa than actually giving her a friend who stick by her long-term). Also, it is indeed clear that writers don't seem to realize that she is a child and realistically wouldn't have that much romantic thoughts or even be a bit boy-crazy (if she was, like 11 or 12 it'd be understandable), but then again, I guess we'll have to facture in how she's essentially a grown-up in a child's body and wise beyond her years, so maybe it'd make some sense she'd be a bit more romantically inclined than normal girls her age? I dunno.

This is a really lovely way to put it actually! I really don't like it when people characterise Lisa as an aloof, uptight character who looks down her nose at everyone all the time because that's just not true. She's someone who has genuine problems with socialising and connecting with people who's had a lot of issues with that in the past that seem to kind of haunt her and who always tries to be tolerant, improve herself and get past her issues (even if she doesn't necessarily succeed). She deserves a lot of sympathy and patience for all that, not to be scorned as some kind of unlikeable, intolerant narcissist which she really isn't... So yeah nice summation of her complexities!

THank for the kinds words on that summary, which I really typed in late as a final improvised statement, but now that I go read it, it makes a lot of sense regarding Lisa, actually. It is such a shame than many view her as a negative character with all those negative traits you mentioned there and don't see that there are fairly obvious reasons she sometimes show off the more negative traits (such as those I've been talking of in that post) with her issues stemming from her past experiences with no real friend, classmates who ignore and mock her, feeling like an outcast whom is no good for anyone but someone whom is more or less exactly tailor made for her and whatnot, all of which makes her display troubling attitudes and having that high bar (that prevents her from growing socially) raised. It's kind of like a vicious cirle.

She do deserve a lot better (including sympathy and patience, yes), but at the same time I don't think it is unreasonable to hope for her opening up, dropping her guard a bit and try be more accepting and tolerant of others and their differences and flaws & not have those impossibly high standards and demand perfection (and see that not everyone is out to hurt her & that there are people who want to help, can be a good friend or even a potential romantic interest). But at the same time she need support and help to come out of her shell. I wish the writers would realize that and finally do give her a lasting friend, which would help her grow a bit as a character.

 

[Sandboy]

You know, there's a pretty noticeable antithetical quality to the Bart/Lisa romantic plots that becomes noticeable as the series goes on. None of Bart's love interest plots are romantic plots to begin with, they make that clear with Laura from the start (for obvious reasons) and Jessica is just a gateway to exploring something more about Bart's character. Do we see a pattern here? Both, despite the nature of the premise, stay close to respecting Bart's age and something much more important: the context. I feel like one thing we're aiming for here is the simplicity of Jessica and Laura's characters (Laura is just the new pretty girl who moved into the neighborhood and Jessica is the minister's daughter) - they both relate to Bart's character in general ; both were realistic contexts that stayed true to the character overall. While the cases targeted by the post-classical are much more complicated; many begin to rely more on "anything that makes a plot" (a very common philosophy in the Jean era) and therefore the "romances" also begin to gradually moved away from Bart's character.

I'd say the problem itself isn't the "Bart/Lisa fall in love" premise, but that the writers rarely have an idea of where to go with it. Jessica and Laura are (to me) examples of how context can substantiate the entire premise. While others are effectively situations in which to fit Bart (Darcy, Nikki and Mary are the worst examples of this), which makes the basis of this premise feel contrived. Or in any case, both sin by necessarily wanting a romance and follow all the beats of the romance plots. It's curious, because it raises an interesting question for me: to what extent is the series allowed or not to address a certain topic (such as The Bart Wants What It Wants? Many of these plots seem to be based on that, actually. When can you stretch that age limit on the show without making it seem like the same show is limiting you creatively. And this episode template shows it. I don't know, but it's curious how they both suffer from that lack of direction that Bart and Lisa have in the post-classic (a consequence of the sanitization of the defining personalities of the two).

 

[CousinMerl]

You know, there's a pretty noticeable antithetical quality to the Bart/Lisa romantic plots that becomes noticeable as the series goes on. None of Bart's love interest plots are romantic plots to begin with, they make that clear with Laura from the start (for obvious reasons) and Jessica is just a gateway to exploring something more about Bart's character. Do we see a pattern here? Both, despite the nature of the premise, stay close to respecting Bart's age and something much more important: the context. I feel like one thing we're aiming for here is the simplicity of Jessica and Laura's characters (Laura is just the new pretty girl who moved into the neighborhood and Jessica is the minister's daughter) - they both relate to Bart's character in general ; both were realistic contexts that stayed true to the character overall. While the cases targeted by the post-classical are much more complicated; many begin to rely more on "anything that makes a plot" (a very common philosophy in the Jean era) and therefore the "romances" also begin to gradually moved away from Bart's character.

Yeah, I too have always found it weird how both 'New Kids On The Block' & 'Bart's Girlfriend' are both usually referred to as romantic plots: I mean, yeah, Laura is just a teenage girl whom happen to befriend Bart and he has a crush on & Jessica, in spite of the episode title, never really becomes Bart's girlfriend. Indeed, these two characters are indeed written and presented in such a excellent way that supersedes the notion of being "the girlfriend" but rather as full characters with their own personality and all, both relating to Bart's being in some form and giving him a good story conflict rather than, putting it simply, becoming a girlfriend of his (and in Laura's case that was off the table; she's a teen and the focus of the story was showing Bart having a crush on an older girl, which is a natural concept to explore).

Just like you are saying, context matter and with these two girl characters one get two perfect examples of that. But yes, after the classic era, things got a little more muddled and complex & not always so well calculated with the romance-related stories, I'd say, being more about a fairly more or less straightforward plot, that may indeed involve a new girl coming into Bart's life and him starting to like her (and I'd argue that some of those were more or less "typical" girlfriend stories than for instance 'Bart's Girlfriend' & 'New Kid On The Block' that were much more), but as the series progressed forward, I've too noticed less emphasis on the so-called romances for Bart (to the point of there by now having been a while since there was any actual "Bart has a girlfriend" type episode, which maybe is for the best?).

I'd say the problem itself isn't the "Bart/Lisa fall in love" premise, but that the writers rarely have an idea of where to go with it. Jessica and Laura are (to me) examples of how context can substantiate the entire premise. While others are effectively situations in which to fit Bart (Darcy, Nikki and Mary are the worst examples of this), which makes the basis of this premise feel contrived. Or in any case, both sin by necessarily wanting a romance and follow all the beats of the romance plots.

That much is true,. Seems like a common problem when it comes to character writing for the show is the writers not having much of an idea (and sometimes not a clue) where to go with these romance-type premises, which go for both the likes of Bart & LIsa but also also characters sometimes (and also tend to set something up and then do nothing with it, such as we saw with Moe & Maya in 'The Wayz We Were', as Maya being together with Moe has more or less been ignored since).

The show does in these cases really need more Jessicas and Lauras and less Nikkis and Marys, rather choosing to have a character who works in the context and further the lead and his/her character, story & conflict rather than being, as you say "situations" or as I'd probably would say, incidental, for the lead and for the premise to even be a thing, missing out on much context and nuances.

And yeah, there have been insances that the episodes do want a romance and do a typical romance plot, which make things a little too by the numbers as if just wanting a "Bart gets a girlfriend" story, for instance, and not wanting to do much with any real dynamic.

It's curious, because it raises an interesting question for me: to what extent is the series allowed or not to address a certain topic (such as The Bart Wants What It Wants? Many of these plots seem to be based on that, actually. When can you stretch that age limit on the show without making it seem like the same show is limiting you creatively. And this episode template shows it. I don't know, but it's curious how they both suffer from that lack of direction that Bart and Lisa have in the post-classic (a consequence of the sanitization of the defining personalities of the two).

It indeed pose an interesting question which is worth pondering on. I think the show should be allowed to address a variety of topics and this of relationships and more or less "romance" stories is one of those that it shouldn't be barred from exploring, but it shouldn't come at the cost of the characters and potential character dynamics and explorations & absolutely not actual story and plot.

There need to be that proper direction, balance and nuances to these stories, the "love interest" has to be a well-written interesting character whom present potential in terms of dynamics and the lead character (Bart or Lisa) should be portrayed as in-character, acting like the internal and external logic dictates. Also, I'd say the writers still need to treat Bart and Lisa as kids of 10 and 8 years old respectively and not as if they were teenagers: I've sometimes argued that since the show generally lacks teenage characters and that the Simpsons don't have a teenager, the writers sometimes tend to act as if Bart & Lisa were teenagers with the latters' personality traits and sensibilities, which really tend to come off as wonky and weird, while the classic era rather played into them being age-appropriate, awkward kids.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

For note, I actually think the basic premise of The Bart Wants What It Wants could've worked....if it were about Greta being so desperate to get the attention of Bart that she willingly tolerated even his worst behaviour and the fact that he genuinely didn't care about her. Because there is a seperate angle from Laura and Jessica that's capable of co-existing with them of how Bart would treat a "normal" girl who just happened to like him, though it likely wouldn't have made him come out of it looking very good. Still better than what we got though.

 

[I Love Lisa]

Hey, no worries! I understand why you'd so quickly jump to defending her and I understand why'd you'd overreact. I often hope that people understand what I write and do feel a bit bad whenver I end up making someone upset or angry due to them misunderstanding me, but it tend to be sorted out when I elaborate a bit, such as this time.

Oh I just want to say that you didn't make me upset or angry at all so please don't feel bad! I really am sorry for coming across a bit too defensive and making you feel that way.

THank for the kinds words on that summary, which I really typed in late as a final improvised statement, but now that I go read it, it makes a lot of sense regarding Lisa, actually. It is such a shame than many view her as a negative character with all those negative traits you mentioned there and don't see that there are fairly obvious reasons she sometimes show off the more negative traits (such as those I've been talking of in that post) with her issues stemming from her past experiences with no real friend, classmates who ignore and mock her, feeling like an outcast whom is no good for anyone but someone whom is more or less exactly tailor made for her and whatnot, all of which makes her display troubling attitudes and having that high bar (that prevents her from growing socially) raised. It's kind of like a vicious cirle.

She do deserve a lot better (including sympathy and patience, yes), but at the same time I don't think it is unreasonable to hope for her opening up, dropping her guard a bit and try be more accepting and tolerant of others and their differences and flaws & not have those impossibly high standards and demand perfection (and see that not everyone is out to hurt her & that there are people who want to help, can be a good friend or even a potential romantic interest). But at the same time she need support and help to come out of her shell. I wish the writers would realize that and finally do give her a lasting friend, which would help her grow a bit as a character.

No problem for the kind words, it was very nice to read! I genuinely do appreciate your more complete understanding of her as a character when some people out there just talk about her like she's the worst person in the world. Yes she has flaws, but they come from an understandable place and at the end of the day, she is a person and everyone has some flaws and negative traits. Her flaws are things she struggles with, but for narrative purposes (which is what this thread's all about), they make her a more realistic, well-crafted character and more interesting to watch as well! It's definitely not unreasonable to hope for her to open up and drop her guard a bit and for her that would absolutely be better and make her happier, but for me as a viewer and a fan, I'm perfectly happy with Lisa as she is because I just love watching her, even when she's struggling with anxiety or her lack of social skills or something, if that makes sense? I want her to be happy of course, but seeing her face problems just makes me want to root for her even more you know?

I guess that too do reflect the views of the male writers and their ideas of female-led romance stories (and they have in part seemed more fond of those for Lisa than actually giving her a friend who stick by her long-term). Also, it is indeed clear that writers don't seem to realize that she is a child and realistically wouldn't have that much romantic thoughts or even be a bit boy-crazy (if she was, like 11 or 12 it'd be understandable), but then again, I guess we'll have to facture in how she's essentially a grown-up in a child's body and wise beyond her years, so maybe it'd make some sense she'd be a bit more romantically inclined than normal girls her age? I dunno.

I think your point about how she's wise beyond her years is actually a very interesting one on the topic of her romance stories and interest in boys now that you mention it. Yes I was far from boy crazy or anything like that when I was 8, but I feel like this is an area where my personal experience doesn't apply because I was a very late developer in that regard (I don't think I really thought about romance and boyfriends and all until I was at least 15) and Lisa definitely isn't quite a "normal" girl either so if she's already more mature than normal for so many other things (at least enough to be often mistaken for 9!) I guess it does make some sense that she'd also be more mature than a typical 8 year old with romantic matters as well.

I will say on the topic of Lisa romances as well that while the whole "she's only 8" thing does make it kinda weird a lot of the time, I don't think it's impossible as a plot idea if it's done right. Essentially if it's not actually a romance. I don't know how obscure a reference point this is, but I remember seeing an episode of The Ricky Gervais Show a long time ago where Karl Pilkington was talking about having a "girlfriend" at age 7 which consistented of nothing more than the two of them saying "alright" to each other in the morning and I think that's a good illustration of what "romance" at that age actually is. Two kids saying they're going out, but there's not anything actually there, just two kids playing at boyfriend/girlfriend at most. I think that's why Lisa's Date With Density works so well because it's actually quite a good depiction of childhood "dating". Lisa's essentially just playing around with Nelson (trying to dress him up in nicer clothes and all) because she has a crush and doesn't really know what to do with it in practice, whilst Nelson kind of just goes along with it because he doesn't really know what to do with a girl that has a crush on him. It's all very... wholesome and realistically childish from both parties and it really works (I absolutely love the episode!) so it shows there is a way to write a "Lisa gets a boyfriend" plot without it being sort of creepy, it just needs to be handled in an age appropriate way.

It's also why I don't actually mind the whole "attraction to bad boys" thing Lisa has as well. Childhood crushes are real, I know that even if I didn't have them myself, so Lisa getting a little sparkly eyed about the boy in library or the guy on the Corey posters actually rings fairly true to me because it is just simple, surface level crushing and I can buy Lisa being old enough to be affected by that. @MisogiKurakawa mentioned in an earlier post that it doesn't fit in with her usual more intelligent, consciously mature persona and that is true, her fawning over boys doesn't really fit that, but simple attraction and the like are things that you just can't control and there's no reason that Lisa should be able to. The behind-the-scenes reasons why it's "bad boys" specifically that make her sigh wistfully are likely... iffy it's true, but the fact that she has a "type" that can make her sigh like that doesn't feel unnatural. Her having Corey posters on her wall or reading "Non-Threatening Boy" magazine feel like something she'd be a little young for, but not by such a margin that it comes off as a weird to me, especially considering how mature an 8 year old she is. I think her crushes in Lisa the Treehugger and Dude, Where's My Ranch? work in a similar way as well because they are just childish crushes with no attempt at actual romance in the storytelling.

The problem comes when actual romance with a little girl at the heart of it is attempted. Her getting a little crush on the cute older boy at the ranch or swooning over the activist guy don't bother me at all. That sort of thing happens, but then we have something like Haw-Haw Land where another 8 year old turns up acting like a full grown man and we have an adult romance complete with two men fighting for the lady's heart attempted using actual children in the starring roles and that just... doesn't work. Mature as Lisa is for her age, no children have complex romantic relationships like that and it just pushes the suspension of disbelief too far and comes across as... odd for a number of reasons. Kinda uncomfortable even. So it's when Lisa seeks idealised "dreamboat" guys like Brendan that bothers me rather than her basic crushes on "bad boys" because it feels like an adult woman trying to find a husband or soulmate, rather than a child who sometimes swoons a little for surface-level reasons. Essentially, plots, scenes and jokes about Lisa having crushes are fine, but full-on romantic fiction about an 8 year old feels kinda wrong.

 

[CousinMerl]

For note, I actually think the basic premise of The Bart Wants What It Wants could've worked....if it were about Greta being so desperate to get the attention of Bart that she willingly tolerated even his worst behaviour and the fact that he genuinely didn't care about her. Because there is a seperate angle from Laura and Jessica that's capable of co-existing with them of how Bart would treat a "normal" girl who just happened to like him, though it likely wouldn't have made him come out of it looking very good. Still better than what we got though.

I don't see 'The Bart Wants What It Wants' as a impossible, unworkable upremise either. I agree that it just needed to write Greta as having more of a personality, such as your suggested idea there for "fixing" the episode (Even though I don't mind that episode, to be honest).

It is indeed possible to have a relationship/"romance" story with Bart where the girl character doesn't really relate to Bart's character nor has to connect with him on some level (or even give some sort of personal conflict for him), but yeah, rather have more of a general girlfriend story with a "the girl who likes him and he doesn't really reciprocate as he don't have that kind of interest in her" approach and they come to just be friends or something: Actually, I think that would make a lot more sense than having him be romantically involved (also show that a boy can be friends with a girl without anything romantic; actually would be kinda neat to see one of Bart's friends be a girl).

But as opposed to what you are saying, I think it could be done without sacrificing the likeability of Bart and yet staying true to his personality or at least have him come out not looking too bad in the end with how he treats a normal girl. And I think his feelings about it could give some kind of interesting internal conflict for him, depending on how the writing turns out, of course.

And I suppose the same (or similar) cand be said for Lisa's relationships as well, but as said, it is clear they don't want to put as much effort into those. I'd rather say they should try go for a proper "Lisa gets a friend" episode and her social journey go that way.

 

[CousinMerl]

Oh right, was gonna comment on this, too:

Oh I just want to say that you didn't make me upset or angry at all so please don't feel bad! I really am sorry for coming across a bit too defensive and making you feel that way.

No worries! I don't feel bad about it (nor that you attacked me or anything). I'm glad that you didn't take what I said badly or poorly. While I at first thought you came across as a little overprotective (when I made sure to not come across as criticizing Lisa unfairly), I don't blame the defensiveness since you are such a big Lisa fan and proponent & being used to the criticism of the character, but I do think there can be positive and negative crictism, even constructive ones (and it was more that latter I was speaking of).

Will probably comment on a few other things you said.

 

[I Love Lisa]

No worries! I don't feel bad about it (nor that you attacked me or anything). I'm glad that you didn't take what I said badly or poorly. While I at first thought you came across as a little overprotective (when I made sure to not come across as criticizing Lisa unfairly), I don't blame the defensiveness since you are such a big Lisa fan and proponent & being used to the criticism of the character, but I do think there can be positive and negative crictism, even constructive ones (and it was more that latter I was speaking of).

Yeah you're definitely right that there's a big difference between contructive and negative criticism and constructive, well-meaning criticism is actually a great thing! I knew that's what you were giving and I was genuinely just interested in hearing more detail about what you brought up (which you did provide!) but I think I really did come across as a lot more overprotective than I meant so I think this whole thing's on me for phrasing myself wrongly and sounding accidentally defensive. Apologies again!

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

I think your point about how she's wise beyond her years is actually a very interesting one on the topic of her romance stories and interest in boys now that you mention it. Yes I was far from boy crazy or anything like that when I was 8, but I feel like this is an area where my personal experience doesn't apply because I was a very late developer in that regard (I don't think I really thought about romance and boyfriends and all until I was at least 15) and Lisa definitely isn't quite a "normal" girl either so if she's already more mature than normal for so many other things (at least enough to be often mistaken for 9!) I guess it does make some sense that she'd also be more mature than a typical 8 year old with romantic matters as well.

I will say on the topic of Lisa romances as well that while the whole "she's only 8" thing does make it kinda weird a lot of the time, I don't think it's impossible as a plot idea if it's done right. Essentially if it's not actually a romance. I don't know how obscure a reference point this is, but I remember seeing an episode of The Ricky Gervais Show a long time ago where Karl Pilkington was talking about having a "girlfriend" at age 7 which consistented of nothing more than the two of them saying "alright" to each other in the morning and I think that's a good illustration of what "romance" at that age actually is. Two kids saying they're going out, but there's not anything actually there, just two kids playing at boyfriend/girlfriend at most. I think that's why Lisa's Date With Density works so well because it's actually quite a good depiction of childhood "dating". Lisa's essentially just playing around with Nelson (trying to dress him up in nicer clothes and all) because she has a crush and doesn't really know what to do with it in practice, whilst Nelson kind of just goes along with it because he doesn't really know what to do with a girl that has a crush on him. It's all very... wholesome and realistically childish from both parties and it really works (I absolutely love the episode!) so it shows there is a way to write a "Lisa gets a boyfriend" plot without it being sort of creepy, it just needs to be handled in an age appropriate way.

It's also why I don't actually mind the whole "attraction to bad boys" thing Lisa has as well. Childhood crushes are real, I know that even if I didn't have them myself, so Lisa getting a little sparkly eyed about the boy in library or the guy on the Corey posters actually rings fairly true to me because it is just simple, surface level crushing and I can buy Lisa being old enough to be affected by that. @MisogiKurakawa mentioned in an earlier post that it doesn't fit in with her usual more intelligent, consciously mature persona and that is true, her fawning over boys doesn't really fit that, but simple attraction and the like are things that you just can't control and there's no reason that Lisa should be able to. The behind-the-scenes reasons why it's "bad boys" specifically that make her sigh wistfully are likely... iffy it's true, but the fact that she has a "type" that can make her sigh like that doesn't feel unnatural. Her having Corey posters on her wall or reading "Non-Threatening Boy" magazine feel like something she'd be a little young for, but not by such a margin that it comes off as a weird to me, especially considering how mature an 8 year old she is. I think her crushes in Lisa the Treehugger and Dude, Where's My Ranch? work in a similar way as well because they are just childish crushes with no attempt at actual romance in the storytelling.

The problem comes when actual romance with a little girl at the heart of it is attempted. Her getting a little crush on the cute older boy at the ranch or swooning over the activist guy don't bother me at all. That sort of thing happens, but then we have something like Haw-Haw Land where another 8 year old turns up acting like a full grown man and we have an adult romance complete with two men fighting for the lady's heart attempted using actual children in the starring roles and that just... doesn't work. Mature as Lisa is for her age, no children have complex romantic relationships like that and it just pushes the suspension of disbelief too far and comes across as... odd for a number of reasons. Kinda uncomfortable even. So it's when Lisa seeks idealised "dreamboat" guys like Brendan that bothers me rather than her basic crushes on "bad boys" because it feels like an adult woman trying to find a husband or soulmate, rather than a child who sometimes swoons a little for surface-level reasons. Essentially, plots, scenes and jokes about Lisa having crushes are fine, but full-on romantic fiction about an 8 year old feels kinda wrong.

You're right in noting that Lisa is still very much in-character with Lisa's Date with Density, and it's something that puts it ahead of literally any of the attempts post-classic. But it still lacks something I feel is very significant which the other Classic plots (or semi-classic, with Lard of the Dance) have; Actual thematic connection. Pretty much nothing about Nelson actually meaningfully links to Lisa, and that makes the relationship a lot less compelling than arguably should have been.

It's intriguing the dichotomy here. While Lisa has a terrible track record with love interests but several genuinely engaging friendships, Bart is effectively the opposite, with two well-realized love interests in the classic series but male friendships which are all varying degrees of poorly developed and inconsistent. And in both cases, the common shared point is...Milhouse and Nelson, who take up the vast majority of Lisa's "romance" situation post-classic, and are Bart's two defined friendships with very few other examples (there's technically Martin, but the classic series basically never focused on their dynamic, despite it ironically being arguably the most creatively realized of the bunch). So beyond just the issues of gendered relationships, there's the pretty valid question if a lot of this is just the writers investing far more into two characters they never really had a proper idea what to do with.

Makes me wonder how Milhouse especially could've been handled better.

 

[CousinMerl]

Yeah you're definitely right that there's a big difference between contructive and negative criticism and constructive, well-meaning criticism is actually a great thing! I knew that's what you were giving and I was genuinely just interested in hearing more detail about what you brought up (which you did provide!) but I think I really did come across as a lot more overprotective than I meant so I think this whole thing's on me for phrasing myself wrongly and sounding accidentally defensive. Apologies again!

Nice to see you agree on my points on constructive vs. negative criticism. I really do think that even in this discussion on Lisa, the well-meaning criticism is important and shouldn't be shyed away from just because the character tend to be unfairly hated by haters and petty critics (and in her case I think there are a lot of good points to be made, such as what I've been talking about at far too much length, and can actually help her as a character and general portrayal & in terms of potential arcs). I would rather have that constructive criticism than the old lazy "Lisa sucks" stuff that don't say anything how the character and her characterization could be improved upon.

But yeah, I do understand why you came off as overprotective in spite of wanting to hear more of what I was talking about, but it is not just you who was misunderstood due to phrasing and sounding a certain ways (I'm guilty of that myself and having had to elaborate a few times due to being misunderstood and having someone criticize). Now that it's been solved, let's move on withdiscussions and whatnot.

 

[I Love Lisa]

You're right in noting that Lisa is still very much in-character with Lisa's Date with Density, and it's something that puts it ahead of literally any of the attempts post-classic. But it still lacks something I feel is very significant which the other Classic plots (or semi-classic, with Lard of the Dance) have; Actual thematic connection. Pretty much nothing about Nelson actually meaningfully links to Lisa, and that makes the relationship a lot less compelling than arguably should have been.

I actually think the lack of obvious connection between Lisa and Nelson works in the episode's favour. I enjoy seeing two characters who haven't really got anything to do with each other put together to see how their chemistry works and, while it doesn't always work out, I think this one was a really big success. You wouldn't think Lisa and Nelson would have anything as a pairing, but they really did and I think that finding that unexpected spark there is great. It really helped Nelson's development in particular as well, helping to push his secret softer side more to the fore by having Lisa try and bring it out and I think that was a very positive evolution of his character.

Your point about how Lisa's new friends tend to be more interesting with forgettable (occassionally regrettable) love interests while Bart sort of has the opposite is interesting too. I would argue that Nelson was a good pairing for her for that one episode at least, but the only one-off character who worked in that role was Hugh (who funnily enough, was used romantically with an adult Lisa) but Bart has had some more interesting girlfriends and less interesting new friends it's true. My guess is that it's because 1. Bart actually does have firm established friendships in the series (at least with Milhouse for better or worse) so there's less of an empty space the writers can explore in potentially interesting ways like they can with a "Lisa friend" character and 2. Bart's a couple of years older than Lisa, so stories about romance and all that feel that much less weird when he's in the spotlight compared to his 8 year old sister. (Although episodes like Beware My Cheating Bart do exist which are super creepy...)

Nice to see you agree on my points on constructive vs. negative criticism. I really do think that even in this discussion on Lisa, the well-meaning criticism is important and shouldn't be shyed away from just because the character tend to be unfairly hated by haters and petty critics (and in her case I think there are a lot of good points to be made, such as what I've been talking about at far too much length, and can actually help her as a character and general portrayal & in terms of potential arcs). I would rather have that constructive criticism than the old lazy "Lisa sucks" stuff that don't say anything how the character and her characterization could be improved upon.

But yeah, I do understand why you came off as overprotective in spite of wanting to hear more of what I was talking about, but it is not just you who was misunderstood due to phrasing and sounding a certain ways (I'm guilty of that myself and having had to elaborate a few times due to being misunderstood and having someone criticize). Now that it's been solved, let's move on withdiscussions and whatnot.

Oh yeah I was actually trained in giving and recieving constructive criticism in the past so I know all about it's importance and that's why I should be better at it really! But yeah best to move on from this now.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

Switching gears slightly to another point in this entangled web of friends and love interests, I think it might be worth considering the broader implications of Bart and Milhouse's relationship.



I touched on this already in a post a while back, but even if you exclude the Lisa-obsession from the equation, Bart's relationship with Milhouse is....odd. Unlike the other "absent" dynamics, Milhouse meant they never had to create a character to fill the spot of friend for Bart, but it's also a dynamic the writers were never really interested in filling with anything at the same time. Instead, we're just told on multiple occasions that they're best friends....but rarely do we see any textual evidence that Bart actually values Milhouse in any way. We get more evidence he doesn't more than anything: We see how weirdly possessive and hostile he gets when Milhouse has a girlfriend, we see him show complete apathy to how being an actor makes Milhouse miserable, and we see him put Milhouse on the FBI's most wanted list for laughs. That last one is a joke, obviously, but the fact that they can just make a joke like that is pretty indicative of how the relationship is presented - it's something which effectively can be actively dismissed to where Bart can do horrendously cruel and malicious things to his supposed "best friend", and yet this is just brushed off in a way that, say, Bart's relationship with Lisa never is, where Bart doing something genuinely bad to his sister is always taken seriously.

What makes this stick out even more is that Milhouse is rarely actually shown as a participant in Bart's various antics. He's there often, standing off to the side, but the show is very conservative when it comes to actually depicting him being involved. Despite him often being given the label of "sidekick", there's relatively little in the way of active interplay with what Bart is most characterized as doing, it's usually all just passive observations. Which highlights the question the show purposely avoids properly answering: Why, exactly, are Bart and Milhouse such close friends, and why exactly is that worth anything? Even if you look at the most recent stories, the most Clash of the Cave Moms can really muster is a half-hearted admission that Milhouse is aware Bart is a bad influence, but also the only kid willing to be his friend. Which is a sweet-ish sentiment....but that only really goes so far as to explain why he sticks around, and does nothing to really validate Bart actually being in any way a good friend, even with his massively softened portrayal.

This is where Bart's Friend Falls In Love takes an odd place, because the episode is honestly still Milhouse's best portrayal in the entire series. Sure, he's still really awkward and gets picked on by bullies, but he's actually genuinely kind and sympathetic. He doesn't portray any of the toxic and overtly weird/unpleasant traits (no stealing Maggie's dippers for one thing), he's just normal. But that also really highlights how weirdly flawed the concept of him and Bart being friends is, given that Bart's actions seem entirely driven by how he doesn't actually respect Milhouse as a person, and the episode is left to try and ignore these implications entirely so that Bart never actually learns what he did was wrong. Instead the ending seems to just....act like they're still friends, despite Bart having done absolutely nothing to deserve it. And that sort of limp wristed admission is still the most development their relationship has gotten.

So I was wondering....was there a way to make the Bart/Milhouse relationship work, keeping both relatively in-character and yet showing it in a more meaningful light? Because I feel like that's something worth considering here.

 

[B-Boy]

But that also really highlights how weirdly flawed the concept of him and Bart being friends is, given that Bart's actions seem entirely driven by how he doesn't actually respect Milhouse as a person, and the episode is left to try and ignore these implications entirely so that Bart never actually learns what he did was wrong.

The same could be said for Moe Goes from Rags to Riches, the only other episode I can think of that examines this dynamic. Milhouse gets fed up with the way Bart treats him and spurns him, rejecting multiple halfhearted apologies. It's a great idea, but the writing undermines it twice by a complete lack of sincerity. There's one scene in which Bart reads out a card, likening Milhouse to a brother. It's good, but then we learn that Lisa wrote it. The ending completely cheaps out - Milhouse forgives Bart when the latter allows him to get Frederick Tatum to punch him after which Milhouse says he wasn't comfortable having the upper hand and Bart says he'll dominate him in less obvious ways. It paints Bart as possessive, controlling, manipulative, and sociopathic. He wasn't upset about losing his friend. He was upset about losing his pawn and punching bag.

Awful stuff.

 

[Nitsy]

Why do the writers hate their characters having friends so much? Maybe because they don't have any themselves

There are multiple episodes that reference the flimsiness of Bart and Milhouse's friendship, such as Bart proclaiming that the only reason he and Milhouse are friends is "geographical convenience" (while that may be the ultimate explanation for meeting anyone, surely Bart would have something else to say if he truly valued Milhouse). There's another scene--cannot remember from which episode--when Bart and Milhouse are fighting and they miserably claim their friendship makes no sense and they shouldn't even be friends.

I always prefer the episodes that emphasize that Bart does care about Milhouse, such as when he loses him in Milhouse Doesn't Live Here Anymore or nearly loses him in Homer Defined (and Bart goes so far as to tear up over old movies of him and Milhouse actually enjoying each other's company). As with most of these things, I think the writers get more comedic mileage out of Bart and Milhouse's friendship being horribly lopsided, chaotic, and problematic, and that's fine for the occasional joke, but I wish they'd do more to show that Bart and Milhouse are actual best friends.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

Why do the writers hate their characters having friends so much? Maybe because they don't have any themselves

There are multiple episodes that reference the flimsiness of Bart and Milhouse's friendship, such as Bart proclaiming that the only reason he and Milhouse are friends is "geographical convenience" (while that may be the ultimate explanation for meeting anyone, surely Bart would have something else to say if he truly valued Milhouse). There's another scene--cannot remember from which episode--when Bart and Milhouse are fighting and they miserably claim their friendship makes no sense and they shouldn't even be friends.

I always prefer the episodes that emphasize that Bart does care about Milhouse, such as when he loses him in Milhouse Doesn't Live Here Anymore or nearly loses him in Homer Defined (and Bart goes so far as to tear up over old movies of him and Milhouse actually enjoying each other's company). As with most of these things, I think the writers get more comedic mileage out of Bart and Milhouse's friendship being horribly lopsided, chaotic, and problematic, and that's fine for the occasional joke, but I wish they'd do more to show that Bart and Milhouse are actual best friends.

Thing is though, even in Homer Defined, the contents of Bart's photo album make it pretty clear Bart's treatment of Milhouse isn't very good to begin with, as does a passing comment from Marge when she meets with Luanne. There was always a highly questionable, one-sided implication to their relationship, the classic series just very rarely drew attention to it or said the quiet part out loud. If anything, one could argue many Post-Classic stories have taken too positive an interpretation.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

Another nuance here I forgot to mention in the first post - Milhouse's entire character? Essentially identical to the concept of Janey. Both were conceived as the relatively generic, nondescript "best friend" character for one of the Simpsons kids, with very little to them that would narratively or thematically add to their stories. The big difference being that, while Janey was barely used and largely phased out after S3, Milhouse the writers doubled down on more and more as time went on, trying to make him work even when it was apparent he never really did.

Worth pondering why that is.

 

[Venomrabbit]

Well part of his troubles are possibly because sidekicks are a cursed role. They're kinda always stuck being an extra pair of hands or someone to explain things to unless they're second to an antagonist or villain. To that extent, he doesn't really contrast a lot with Bart (not in a way that opens up or leads to stories, anyway) and doesn't have any unique skills, and probably couldn't feasibly have any that wouldn't just make him a lesser Martin.

Milhouse is an odd case in general since, from what I heard, he wasn't even made for The Simpsons originally. Apparently he was made for a Saturday morning cartoon pitch called Dante's Inferno that never got off the ground and that Milhouse was salvaged and put into The Simpsons instead. Couldn't find a proper source so don't quote me on that but it might explain why he's been pushed for so hard or why his placement in the show is so awkward. That and the staff aren't remotely shy about their own biases, he's apparently a big favourite amongst the staff.

 

[CousinMerl]

I always liked 'Milhouse Doesn't Live Here Anymore', not only as it gives a great "What if?" story (What if Milhouse wasn't there to be Bart's friend?) and present a fun Bart-Lisa dynamic, but also as it really does show and highlight that Bart really do care for Milhouse as his friend and values him highly, disproving any notion of Bart only "caring" for Milhouse as a lackey to push around as a cohort, revealing that to Bart, Milhouse has actual meaning as a pal. And Milhouse do genuinely seem to care about Bart as a friend too and don't really mind being involved in the various shenanigans Bart pulls him into (aside from showing some hesitation at times) so he tags along for the fun of it, seemingly.

With Bart being left without a best friend (as Milhouse moved away for a while) and bonding more tightly with Lisa as a friend as opposed to just a sister, an episode like this one makes me wishes the show would be a bit more serialized, do story arcs or more two-part episode for the sake of more deeper and more effective narrative and meaningful story/character arcs.