Meta Analysis and Narrative Infrastructure Thread

The issue with "fixing" Bart is that, while it sounds nice in a vacuum, it's practically speaking not really feasible when, as I noted, much of the underlying context and infrastructure needed to make his character work is just flat out gone. You can't tell stories about him conflicting with his parents or sister unless there are things to conflict with them about - things which require shifting Homer, Lisa, and arguably Marge's characterizations to accommodate. You can't tell stories about his conflicts at school when he has effectively no real conflict to have there. You can't tell stories about conflicts with his friends, because he never really ever had a properly developed relationship with any of them (it's telling that the most we got with Milhouse is a vastly reimagined repeat of Homer Defined). There's simply nothing that could be plausibly, feasibly done here, because there is simply no means of setting back the clock.

If anything, I find the question of "what can be done" somewhat redundant. I understand why people give it - people naturally want to enjoy the media they follow - but as a fan, I think it's more conducive and meaningful to actually examine the creative theory and the specific why behind various decisions, the dissection of settings on a conceptual level and what they mean, and could've meant. This is part of why I fixate on guest characters for example - the question of what they could've served long term is interesting, because they tended to have much more developed personalities and relationships than much of the actual secondary cast, and that we don't have a definite answer allows us the capacity to speculate and debate. There's a lot more to be gained in that, I feel.

That's just my perspective, though. Feel free to give your own.
 
Moving onto a new but related subject, I think bits like this represent what Selman Lisa truly lacks.

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Lisa is a massive fan of Malibu Stacy dolls, the in-universe version of Barbie. It's an extremely pronounced part of the character, but what exactly does she use them for? To roleplay a political assembly.

This is a very consistent aspect of Lisa's character in the classic series. She is not two things, but two ideas forming a a singular composite - a brilliant, enlightened young woman and feminist in much the same vein as the likes of Gloria Steinem, and also a literal 8-year-old child with the interests and emotional needs that entails. Lisa is constantly evoking this idea, and it informs all her Classic stories; this is the girl who talks about Gore Vidal while complaining about not being popular at school.

This past convo has talked a fair bit about Bart being defanged, but I'd say that applies even more strongly to Lisa. Post-Classic took a character intended as a genuine feminist statement, and turned her into effectively just a stereotypical liberal who says things the audience is broadly meant to agree with, but doesn't really constitute any kind of actual statement. Her child-side is either absent or played in such a way that all her actual wisdom is just outright gone. They took an enlightened 8-year-old, and replaced her with....an 8-year-old. And I dunno, that feels like a massive waste of arguably the most radical character in the classic series.
 
The issue with "fixing" Bart is that, while it sounds nice in a vacuum, it's practically speaking not really feasible when, as I noted, much of the underlying context and infrastructure needed to make his character work is just flat out gone.

Who said anything about "fixing" Bart? I don't think he needs to be "fixed" at all and the entire show doesn'thave to change at all to accommodate for him and such, but they simply can just try to find that balance I was speaking of, bringing back more of that edgy Bart at times without losing his positive traits as has been showing all the more in recent seasons. It is more than possible if they want to, but they are content with having Bart be as he is right now, which is a more toothless and safer version of how he used to be, with only sometimes his more troublemaking and rambunctious and/or destructive side showing). So yeah, it is not a question of "fixing" Bart but rather to not forget where he came from and whom he was before, finding more of a middle ground than anything.

If anything, I find the question of "what can be done" somewhat redundant. I understand why people give it - people naturally want to enjoy the media they follow - but as a fan, I think it's more conducive and meaningful to actually examine the creative theory and the specific why behind various decisions, the dissection of settings on a conceptual level and what they mean, and could've meant.

I can understand why you'd find it redundant, but I don't see nor intepret it in such an absolute way as you do. It can certainly be more conductive and meaningful to examine a creative theory and its specifics, but it doesn't mean that exploring the topic of what can be done is redundant at all, but can actually be quite valid and have some good points in it, so I wouldn't discard that notion as pointless.

This is part of why I fixate on guest characters for example - the question of what they could've served long term is interesting, because they tended to have much more developed personalities and relationships than much of the actual secondary cast, and that we don't have a definite answer allows us the capacity to speculate and debate. There's a lot more to be gained in that, I feel.

That can be true for some guest characters, but many of them are not as developed or have such complex personalities and relationships as much of the secondary characters (I mean, the former are guest characters and tend to only have one episode to make an impression and sometimes they can feel more fleshed out and real, but other times come off as more flat and uninteresting).

Though even so, it is no doubt usually more interesting to wonder what could be done/could've been done with these characters as, per definition, being guest characters there are no definite answers, which invites a lot of discussions, debates, theories, speculation and whatnot, so yes, a lot can be gained from that, but as said, it doesn't mean that such about main characters, such as Bart in this case (much as he is a fairly multifaceted, threedimensional character), is any less valid or redundant.

It depends on whom you ask and I bet that a lot of fans around these parts don't see the topic of what can be done about the Bart situation redundant or useless at all, but actually an interesting topic on its own.
 
Didn't think you were one of the showrunners, but there we have it folks: @I Love Lisa confessed! :lol:
Eh you can probably guess that isn't true by the fact that there are still non-Lisa episodes being made. One day I'll take over and turn it into the Lisa show though, so enjoy seeing the other characters while you can everyone! :P

Also to give an actual response to the topic (a bit late I know), I have been pondering this point:
Sure, a lot of the writers on the show are more or less out of touch older fellas and know and/or understand little of youth culture these days (though they do seem to try harder with Lisa, unlike with Bart, so there is a clear pro-Lisa bias, I guess due to them loving the character)
I'm not sure about the pro-Lisa bias you're seeing there? At least not on this specific point anyway. I do agree with the point that @B-Boy made that Bart's role as being the countercultural, "stick it to the man" sort of character has left him behind somewhat from his heyday in the '90s and made him the most outdated of the main cast, plus the older fellas in the writing room knowing little of youth culture these days means they'll have little idea of how to depict youth counter-culture either. This stuff does effect Bart quite heavily, especially since it's true that he was always the stand-in character when they wanted to depict whatever the kids were into, but I don't think it's quite fair to bring Lisa into that argument in the sense of them trying more to stay up to date with her, but not bothering with Bart because she was never supposed to be up to date as a character in the same way he is.

Lisa has always been used to represent modern thinking on issues like feminism, that's true, but on trends, fashions and youth culture? Not at all. That's Bart's domain and she's always been an outsider in that sense. Go all the way back to season 1 and Moaning Lisa. Lisa's "wailing out for the Iowa farmer whose land was taken away" whilst Bart has a plot about playing virtual boxing, computer games being very much seen as purely youth culture at the time. Of course Bart might be the one playing games whilst Lisa doesn't because "males all follow their video cartridges"
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but I think it illustrates the difference between the two siblings pretty well. Bart is at the then-centre of youth culture whilst Lisa's outside it, not fitting in with the other kids. Perhaps an even better illustration is the difference in their reactions to the Bonestorm advert:
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Lisa, sarcastic total indifference to the latest cool thing. Bart, literally salivating at the thought of it. To the point where he ends up trying to shoplift something that, according to Milhouse, gets boring pretty fast anyway (I think that's an interesting point about the Bonestorm thing actually, the fact that the game's seemingly no good so the only reason Bart wants it so bad is because of the advert telling him he should). Bart's our conduit to the world of youth culture and Lisa's always been at least somewhat defined by existing outside that world. That's why Bart flits between liking heavy metal in one episode and rap music in another (whilst joining a boy band in between). He chases what's cool, whilst Lisa sticks with jazz and the blues the entire time. This exchange between them in Pranksta Rap spells that out pretty well actually:

"Just what we need, another lame suburban kid who likes rap." "So? You like the blues." "Yes, but the blues are unpopular."

She clearly takes satisfaction in following something uncool there and when she does try to be cool in Summer of 4 ft. 2 she ends up - to a degree at least - imitating Bart. She plays at being cool because she isn't and never has been so the writers losing touch with the youth just doesn't affect her in anywhere near the same way as it does Bart because that's not what Lisa's plots were built around anyway. I don't think there's so much trying harder with Lisa because they prefer her to Bart, but that her status as an outsider amongst her age group means the passage of time hasn't left her behind as a character like you could argue it somewhat did to Bart which just makes it easier to tell modern Lisa stories than Bart ones.
 
Eh you can probably guess that isn't true by the fact that there are still non-Lisa episodes being made. One day I'll take over and turn it into the Lisa show though, so enjoy seeing the other characters while you can everyone! :P

Yeah, can see that probably isn't the case as other characters do get episodes. Lisa is cool and all, but Not sure if I'm looking forward to the day when you take over the reins and transform 'The Simpsons' into 'The Lisa Simpson Variety Half-Hour' :lawl:

Also to give an actual response to the topic (a bit late I know), I have been pondering this point:

I'm not sure about the pro-Lisa bias you're seeing there? At least not on this specific point anyway.

I don't even remember making that comment you quoted, but so I did. :lol:

Anyhow, with the pro-Lisa bias by the writers, I was more referring to what others have pointed out about Lisa being the big favorite of the writers' room (and the staff as a whole, really) which has resulted in them often favoring her and it showing in the writing, with a lot of a Lisa focus in terms of episodes and plots (and it often comes at a loss of Bart episodes & stories).

Didn't mean it in the sense of something like them excusing Lisa all the time and letting her get away with this or that (as I think the punishment the two get is fairly even judging by them doing something bad, etc.), but yeah, I meant how the staff are pretty much all fans of Lisa and preferring to make Lisa stories, such as of recent where we've had a lot more Lisa episodes than Bart episodes.
 
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Yeah, can see that probably isn't the case as other characters do get episodes. Lisa is cool and all, but Not sure if I'm looking forward to the day when you take over the reins and transform 'The Simpsons' into 'The Lisa Simpson Variety Half-Hour' :lawl:
Heh heh I'll show everyone what real pro-Lisa bias looks like. ;)

...Actually, probably for the best I'm not involved in making The Simpsons because there wouldn't be much variety in "The Lisa Simpson Variety Half-Hour"! :lol:

I don't even remember making that comment you quoted, but so I did. :lol:
Honestly I forgot myself but saw it and the post before it when I was reading back through the thread and it inspired me to post.

Anyhow, with the pro-Lisa bias by the writers, I was more referring to what others have pointed out about Lisa being the big favorite of the writers' room (and the staff as a whole, really) which has resulted in them often favoring her and it showing in the writing, with a lot of a Lisa focus in terms of episodes and plots (and it often comes at a loss of Bart episodes & stories).

Didn't mean it in the sense of something like them excusing Lisa all the time and letting her get away with this or that (as I think the punishment the two get is fairly even judging by them doing something bad, etc.), but yeah, I meant how the staff are pretty much all fans of Lisa and preferring to make Lisa stories, such as of recent where we've had a lot more Lisa episodes than Bart episodes.
Oh I didn't think you meant in that way! I was talking specifically about the idea that Bart's been allowed to slide more into the background because of how he feels more outdated while Lisa seems to get as much focus as ever and how that's because Lisa's not tied in any meaningful way to being current and "cool" like Bart is is all.

Also, slightly off topic, but I do find it funny seeing you mention that Lisa seems to be a favourite of the writers room and gets a lot of attention and all. That is a very common opinion like you say and seems to be actually be true, but as a big Lisa fan I've always felt like she could have more attention. At the end of every single season I always end up thinking, "I wish there were more Lisa episodes", but that's because I am such a big Lisa fan I guess. Heck if we had 21 episodes out of 22 about Lisa I'd probably be wishing the other one was about her too.

Moving onto a new but related subject, I think bits like this represent what Selman Lisa truly lacks.

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Lisa is a massive fan of Malibu Stacy dolls, the in-universe version of Barbie. It's an extremely pronounced part of the character, but what exactly does she use them for? To roleplay a political assembly.

This is a very consistent aspect of Lisa's character in the classic series. She is not two things, but two ideas forming a a singular composite - a brilliant, enlightened young woman and feminist in much the same vein as the likes of Gloria Steinem, and also a literal 8-year-old child with the interests and emotional needs that entails. Lisa is constantly evoking this idea, and it informs all her Classic stories; this is the girl who talks about Gore Vidal while complaining about not being popular at school.

This past convo has talked a fair bit about Bart being defanged, but I'd say that applies even more strongly to Lisa. Post-Classic took a character intended as a genuine feminist statement, and turned her into effectively just a stereotypical liberal who says things the audience is broadly meant to agree with, but doesn't really constitute any kind of actual statement. Her child-side is either absent or played in such a way that all her actual wisdom is just outright gone. They took an enlightened 8-year-old, and replaced her with....an 8-year-old. And I dunno, that feels like a massive waste of arguably the most radical character in the classic series.
I do like your explanation of Lisa as being two things at once in a regular 8-year old and an deep enlightened thinker because the push and pull between those two sides of her, the child and the "mini adult", does define a lot of who she is as a person. I really don't think I agree with the idea of her being "defanged" in any way though. Her acting like a kid doesn't mean that her wisdom is gone and nor does her speaking up about her beliefs and convictions mean her childish nature has vanished. They just come out at different times and it's not as if the classic episodes never had her do anything purely childish. Off the top of my head there's the scene where she lies to Marge to sneakily watch Itchy & Scratchy at Janey's and that's not the action of an enlightened young feminist, just that of a kid who wanted to watch a cartoon, but her doing it doesn't lessen that feminist role for her in any way. She can be both and she is both and I think that's still true today like it was 30-odd years ago.
 
Heh heh I'll show everyone what real pro-Lisa bias looks like. ;)

The Lisa Simpson Variety Half-Hour Would be an interesting one-off episode for real, tho.

Honestly I forgot myself but saw it and the post before it when I was reading back through the thread and it inspired me to post.

Ah, then I perfectly understand. It was an older post, but I'm sure it still checks out.

Oh I didn't think you meant in that way! I was talking specifically about the idea that Bart's been allowed to slide more into the background because of how he feels more outdated while Lisa seems to get as much focus as ever and how that's because Lisa's not tied in any meaningful way to being current and "cool" like Bart is is all.

Now I see what you mean.

In which case I must be clear that I never meant that the reason he has been less in focus is because he feels outdated, which is not how I feel at all (since it has been proven recently that him and his archetype still has a place on the show; I mean, 'Bartless' was essentially all about that) and I don't think it's because Lisa is more of an general evergreen character, but I do find it interesting how Lisa has been so prominent as opposed to Bart nowadays and yeah, I think it may have something to do with how the staff are outspoken Lisa fans.

Which brings me to the next part:

Also, slightly off topic, but I do find it funny seeing you mention that Lisa seems to be a favourite of the writers room and gets a lot of attention and all. That is a very common opinion like you say and seems to be actually be true, but as a big Lisa fan I've always felt like she could have more attention. At the end of every single season I always end up thinking, "I wish there were more Lisa episodes", but that's because I am such a big Lisa fan I guess. Heck if we had 21 episodes out of 22 about Lisa I'd probably be wishing the other one was about her too.

Yeah, it do seem to be the usual opinion from fans and I think it do have a basis in truth, as I remember reading of several of the staff (I think writers too, having spoken before of connecting more to Lisa and all that so they obviously prefer to focus on Lisa and I understand that, but even being a fan of a character and maybe have them as a creator's pet character) can be a detriment if one focus too much on them and end up having less focus stories and episodes about some other main character.

But still, I totally get why Lisa fans such as yourself want more Lisa episodes, but I like some variety with no character being left out in terms of getting episodes, hence why I'd want to see a lot more Bart episodes, with him being less in focus these days making me want them to make more of an effort (and being a Bart fan absolutely has something to do with it, haha).
 
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Shifting back to the subject of Marge, but it genuinely baffles me that the writers never actually tried to develop the relationship between her and Helen.

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Helen was introduced first in Life on the Fast Lane, Marge's very first proper story, when she happens upon Marge and Jacques together, and the episode pretty clearly establishes her deal despite it being her only one scene. She introduces herself in a way that indicates she's trying to get Marge to know who she is (when Marge's response indicates she already knows), and from there pesters the two in a way specifically to try and suss out if Marge is having an affair, all just so she can spread the word around later. This communicates a lot in very little - while Marge is definitely in the wrong for her budding affair with Jacques, Helen is clearly doing this out of a desire to just get a moral "victory" over her. That she specifically calls out Marge by name also directly infers that this isn't a first meeting, and the two women have a history which is also probably not a pleasant one.

The thing is too that they don't ever really forget about this, either. In Marge vs Itchy and Scratchy, Helen is the one who drags the protest against cartoon violence into full-on censorship. In A Streetcar Called Marge, she's the one playing the role of Stella, Blanche's direct opposite. In Marge In Chains, she testifies against Marge and spreads nasty rumors about her. In The Twisted World of Marge Simpson, Helen is largely the one treated as the face of the Investorettes, being the one to push for kicking Marge out and getting the most dialogue. The pattern is very consistent across the entire classic series, it isn't like the Twins or Janey, where the creators initially intended a dynamic only to drop it once it stopped really working with how they'd developed the characters, it's something that we're reminded of in half of Marge's actual stories.

And yet it's also something never really used, either. All these examples I named are just fleeting scenes, nothing actually designed to give definition. Even in In Marge We Trust, the story about Marge working at the church, Helen has a grand total of one scene where she calls Marge to express her concerns about her husband, the story despite being about Lovejoy just completely ignoring Marge's pre-established relationship with his wife. Helen is effectively treated as a nobody, just another character the animators insert into crowd scenes, rather than someone whom the audience is in any way supposed to care about. In spite of how many times the show seems to be leaning on Helen as some kind of foil to Marge, they never once commit to it, and just kinda shove the point to the side as an irrelevant point of reference.

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What makes this strange is that, from what I understand, the general lack of focus on Marge was in large part because of the writers struggling to think of story concepts for her....yet the relationship she has with a character clearly intended as her foil just wasn't ever iterated upon. Helen is unique in that, unlike the other non-Simpson women of Springfield sans Edna, she isn't introduced as a derivative. She isn't "Ned Flanders' wife" or "Milhouse's mother", she's "Helen Lovejoy, the gossipy wife of the minister". She's framed as an actual full character, with a unique design, full name (Luanne was just "Mrs van Houten" until Season 8), and a personality which isn't just a genderswap of her husband. And the church is something Marge only has a connection to; Bart and Homer don't even want to go, while Marge is shown to be very openly devote. And very directly associated with the church is a woman who the show seems to present as Marge's natural rival in a way not dissimilar to Homer and Ned; the "honorable" wife of the local reverend who is in reality a vindictive, judgemental, moralizing gossip. Seems pretty much exactly the sort of woman you'd pair up in a contrast to Marge, whose main character traits are in being the "average" mother and wife to a dysfunctional family unit, while expressing a much stronger moral and emotional core beneath the surface.

Indeed, Jessica's existence only strengthens the dichotomy; Marge and Bart's relationship is defined by how much genuine faith Marge has in her son in spite of fully acknowledging his terrible behaviour, so how would that contrast with Helen, whom Bart's Girlfriend strongly implies also fuels her daughter's issues through intense moralism and denial of her actual emotional needs? That's if anything a very obvious angle to take, and yet it's a story we simply don't have. We don't have the story examining Marge's contrasting conflict with another wife and mother, even when the set-up and foundation is entirely there (before you bring up Clash of the Cave Moms, that story is way more about Marge being overzealous than it is her relationship with Luanne). Instead, we just have the lip-service references to Marge being in antagonistic feuds with seemingly half the women in town...while also inexplainably hanging out with them on the regular too. Even women who have just flat-out attempted to kill her and/or her family get to just chill with Marge, in fact.

This is a really persistent issue with Classic Simpsons that I see reflected in the use of Marge especially. The show has a lot of narrative gaps regarding its initial foundation and worldbuilding, which is understandable for a starting point (especially given how generally rough S1 is), but even when presented with clear solutions, actual narrative concepts that can allow them to expand the series and tell more stories, they just don't use them. Marge can be given a passion and genuine for art (Brush with Greatness), and a meaningful friendship with her neighbor (Marge on the Lam), but these premises are used as just one-off concepts, to be discarded with once the episode is finished, rather than be allowed to settle and influence the creative direction moving forward. Sure, this might be the "typical" sitcom formula, but that doesn't mean it's good, or enable the infinite storytelling glitch the creators seemed to think it gave them (if it had, we wouldn't have had the comments about Oakley/Weinstein struggling for new story concepts). It's a kind of creative thinking which feels like...stubborness, I guess? And it's specifically really puzzling that, from practically Day 1, the show had a clear solution to the issue of Marge having little to really do for the most part, and didn't just not take it, but seemed to actively just ignore it even though they clearly remembered it existed.

Just odd overall.
 
I'm guessing the fact they never took advantage of the antagonistic relationship between Marge and Helen stem out of the staff being too content wth having the two be simple adversaries, with Helen being there to annoy Marge with some jabs, criticisms and the odd pot shots and Marge being annoyed and hitting back (sometimes evening the score between them).

Seems to be the case with most of the other Springfield women when it comes to Marge, with the likes of Luanne & Bernice also falling into the category of judgemental women who are quick to throw shade at Marge and whom are just Marge's enemies (more or less), aside from those few times where they do find some common ground, can bury the hatchet and be amicable to one another.

Could be nice if they ever could have marge bond with any other character and develop some lasting friendship since she may still be the most lonely Simpson, lacking any actual friends (at least Lisa has school classmates and on-off friends, but Marge has nothing, pretty much). There was Sarah Wiggum in 'Uncut Femmes' but as we all know, that was an one-off thing that they didn't continue.
 
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I'm guessing the fact they never took advantage of the antagonistic relationship between Marge and Helen stem out of the staff being too content wth having the two be simple adversaries, with Helen being there to annoy Marge with some jabs, criticisms and the odd pot shots and Marge being annoyed and hitting back (sometimes evening the score between them).

Seems to be the case with most of the other Springfield women when it comes to Marge, with the likes of Luanne & Bernice also falling into the category of judgemental women who are quick to throw shade at Marge whom are just Marge's enemies (more or less), aside from those few times where they do find some common ground, can bury the hatchet and be amicable to one another.
Thing is that wasn't actually the case in the classic series. For the vast majority of the 178, the majority of wives were utter non-characters devoid of any personality whatsoever (Sarah and Bernice have a grand total of 2 and 1 line total across all the episodes), and Marge basically never interacted with them. It wasn't until The Twisted World of Marge Simpson that the "all the Springfield Woman are terrible" trope really started (even Edna, one of the most sympathetic secondaries in the series, is treated this way), and it would continue that way in post-classic pretty violently. My assumption really being that the writers didn't know what to do with the suplass of women in the cast (they even lost interest in Selma and Edna, who were the only two developed female characters in the secondary cast), and Jean specifically seems to think that women and marriages being terrible is funny. Which is extremely misogynistic...but about in line with what I've seen of 2000s American comedy.

Also, no? Helen and Marge rarely directed interacted, let alone traded jabs of any kind. That's part of the point of what I wrote - they didn't even do that with them, despite the continual references suggested something was supposed to be there.
 
Thing is that wasn't actually the case in the classic series. For the vast majority of the 178, the majority of wives were utter non-characters devoid of any personality whatsoever (Sarah and Bernice have a grand total of 2 and 1 line total across all the episodes), and Marge basically never interacted with them. It wasn't until The Twisted World of Marge Simpson that the "all the Springfield Woman are terrible" trope really started (even Edna, one of the most sympathetic secondaries in the series, is treated this way), and it would continue that way in post-classic pretty violently.

Yeah, it is unfortunate that the writers learn the wrong thing from 'Twisted World' and pushed on with the idea of he other main women being judgemental and Marge's rivals and/or enemies, especially how before that they were indeed essentially not even real actual characters but more like supporting ones to the males so this could and should have worked a lot better than it did.

My assumption really being that the writers didn't know what to do with the suplass of women in the cast (they even lost interest in Selma and Edna, who were the only two developed female characters in the secondary cast), and Jean specifically seems to think that women and marriages being terrible is funny. Which is extremely misogynistic...but about in line with what I've seen of 2000s American comedy.

I think a lot of the poor usage and treatment of the women characters on the show boils down to another fact: that most oft he writers are still middle aged to older men and still kind of more or less have a more old fashioned view of women (in a slighter sense). that or simply just don't know how to write them well in any ways aside from having them be antagonistic, whichshow in the writing.

When there's been some women writing (see Carolyn Omine for instance, but also some others), there has been a bit more nuance at times so I think that the show desperately need more girls writing for the show to add a better perspective.

Also, no? Helen and Marge rarely directed interacted, let alone traded jabs of any kind. That's part of the point of what I wrote - they didn't even do that with them, despite the continual references suggested something was supposed to be there.

They absolutely barely interacted prior (aside from the odd scene, like Helen's introductory one in 'Fast Lane') and then later decided the two should be completely incompatible and be at odds constantly. I mean, regarding Helen, they haven't even done much else with the town gossip thing as of late (not even had a proper episode where she spreads misinformation, lies or just fake news).
 
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I never felt comfortable with "misogyny" in terms of its use as a rhetorical tool -- for one thing, like the notion of class, it's a relic of socialism. a now dead 19th century ideology created in a world that no longer exists, for a society that no longer exists. For a second thing, it's too often used as a tool of deflection to protect girls and women who are a shitty parent or human being in general.

To give an anecdote: some purportedly "feminist" activists and many "average" apolitical women show compassion and understanding towards Mary Flora Bell in posts and essays online which i have severe doubts they would do if the genders of the child perp and the two victims were reversed.
 
I never felt comfortable with "misogyny" in terms of its use as a rhetorical tool -- for one thing, like the notion of class, it's a relic of socialism. a now dead 19th century ideology created in a world that no longer exists, for a society that no longer exists. For a second thing, it's too often used as a tool of deflection to protect girls and women who are a shitty parent or human being in general.
What is this in response to?
 
I never felt comfortable with "misogyny" in terms of its use as a rhetorical tool -- for one thing, like the notion of class, it's a relic of socialism. a now dead 19th century ideology created in a world that no longer exists, for a society that no longer exists. For a second thing, it's too often used as a tool of deflection to protect girls and women who are a shitty parent or human being in general.

To give an anecdote: some purportedly "feminist" activists and many "average" apolitical women show compassion and understanding towards Mary Flora Bell in posts and essays online which i have severe doubts they would do if the genders of the child perp and the two victims were reversed.
WTF are you even on about?
 
Thing is that wasn't actually the case in the classic series. For the vast majority of the 178, the majority of wives were utter non-characters devoid of any personality whatsoever (Sarah and Bernice have a grand total of 2 and 1 line total across all the episodes), and Marge basically never interacted with them. It wasn't until The Twisted World of Marge Simpson that the "all the Springfield Woman are terrible" trope really started (even Edna, one of the most sympathetic secondaries in the series, is treated this way), and it would continue that way in post-classic pretty violently. My assumption really being that the writers didn't know what to do with the suplass of women in the cast (they even lost interest in Selma and Edna, who were the only two developed female characters in the secondary cast), and Jean specifically seems to think that women and marriages being terrible is funny. Which is extremely misogynistic...but about in line with what I've seen of 2000s American comedy.

This is the last time misogyny was mentioned so I assume it's in reference to this post. What a... random aside.
 
@Melvin & The Squirrels it appears you have posted twice in this thread already with inane ramblings about some English girl murdering preschool children in the 60s to justify your utter dog shit ideological/political views that nobody else seems to care about beyond general confusion as this has fuck all to do with The Simpsons...

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Soooo... about Bart.

I think the problem with him in the most recent reasons is that in todays media landscape, it's difficult to have a character that's defined by being "bad" and not problematize this to some extent. In the classic seasons, Bart was bad and this was just who he was, and he was liked both in-universe and by the audience despite (and becasuse) of this. Of course he had a conscience beneeth it all, and lot of of his stories were about him overcoming his antisocial nature and doing what is right, but this showing of his good side was usually done when it served a specific story. In any story that wasn't specifically about him needing to do something good, he said and did mostly bad things, and we loved him for it. We took into account that this was fiction, and that even though someone like Bart would be a pain to be around in real life and also be in need of a good psychiatrist for his own sake, this was ultimately inconsequential because, again, this was just fiction.

Once the millenial generation got a say in pop cultural products though, we entered an era where fiction was excepted to take into account reality in a way that wasn't expected before. That is, psychological, emotional and social reality. Someone like Bart is in modern fiction pretty much expected to be looked at, to a certain degree at least, through the lens of "What would make a person this way?" and "How would this person affect other people?" and "What can we, the writers, say about all of this that can give the audience further insights that can help them in their own social lives?". That last questin in particulat is one that I'm sure is rarely actually uttered or even thought about on a conscious level. It's just sort of in younger writers artistic DNA be both deconstructing and constuctive, as much as that sounds like an oxymoron. It's not just "Will people like this character?" it's "What kind of message is this character sendig?".

Someone like Bart whose defining charactertistic is being an absolute asshole and yet being portayed as lovable can still exist in modern media, but mostly in media that expclicitly revel in cyncism and offensiveness as part of it's main appeal... and The Simpsons is no and has never been anything like that. Even when it was egdy by 90's standrads it was still intended to be fundamentally a show about decent people who love each other. It's just that by 90's fiction standards Bart could be a decent and lovable person despite 95% of the time terrorizing others.

Nowadays in order for Bart not to look like a monster by the standards of modern writing, he pretty much has to have his antisocial tendencies explored and explained instead of simply existing as his main comedic appeal, and he pretty much has to have his badness watered down compared to who he was in 1990, at least unless he be repurpused as a downright villain (although even villains nowadays tend to have to have their evilness explored and explained...).

Bart aged out as a character. Now instead of badass Bart we have a troubled adolescent crying out to be accepted and whose occasional bad behaviour can always be resolved if the people involved are just being empathic enough to understand. So like yeah, a very realistic character but not very fucking charismatic or (worse yet) funny.
 
The Lisa Simpson Variety Half-Hour Would be an interesting one-off episode for real, tho.
It really would! I'd absolutely watch it anyway.

In which case I must be clear that I never meant that the reason he has been less in focus is because he feels outdated, which is not how I feel at all (since it has been proven recently that him and his archetype still has a place on the show; I mean, 'Bartless' was essentially all about that) and I don't think it's because Lisa is more of an general evergreen character, but I do find it interesting how Lisa has been so prominent as opposed to Bart nowadays and yeah, I think it may have something to do with how the staff are outspoken Lisa fans.
Ah I think I may have misunderstood to begin with, but yeah Bart very much still does have a place and a role on the show even if he might be more affected by the passage of time and the vagaries of what is and isn't cool at any given time than the rest of the family. That stuff is only surface level really and doesn't affect who he actually is as a person, so it doesn't give any actual explanation of why he'd be less prominent these days.

Yeah, it do seem to be the usual opinion from fans and I think it do have a basis in truth, as I remember reading of several of the staff (I think writers too( having spoken before of connecting more to Lisa and all that so they obviously prefer to focus on Lisa and I understand that, but even being a fan of a character (and maybe have them as a creator's pet character) can be a detriment if one focus too much on them and end up having less focus stories and episodes about some other main character.

But still, I totally get why Lisa fans such as yourself want more Lisa episodes, but I like some variety with no character being left out in terms of getting episodes, hence why I'd want to see a lot more Bart episodes, with him being less in focus these days making me want them to make more of an effort (and being a Bart fan absolutely has something to do with it, haha).
Yeah I do remember reading some things as well about staff members saying they relate to Lisa a lot (can't remember where I read it or who said it though) so there definitely is some truth in the idea of Lisa being popular with the writers at the very least. And I do appreciate that because it means we get more Lisa and you know, if I was working on the show she'd be my favourite to write for as well of course. But you are right that it's not really a good thing to give too much focus to one character over another.

I know I talk an awful lot about Lisa and say I always want more Lisa episodes and stuff (and that is true!) but I know really that the best thing for the show is to have a good mix of episodes between all four of the main family members. In a perfect world every season would give an equal amount of focus to Lisa, Marge, Homer and Bart to keep the level of variety high regardless of my selfish desires to have more Lisa content! :P
 
FYI people, as a general rule of thumb, don't feel disinclined to respond to my older pieces of meta if you feel like you have something to say about the subjects discussed. It's a lot easier to do that than have to repeat ideas in new conversations.
 
Soooo... about Bart.

I think the problem with him in the most recent reasons is that in todays media landscape, it's difficult to have a character that's defined by being "bad" and not problematize this to some extent. In the classic seasons, Bart was bad and this was just who he was, and he was liked both in-universe and by the audience despite (and becasuse) of this. Of course he had a conscience beneeth it all, and lot of of his stories were about him overcoming his antisocial nature and doing what is right, but this showing of his good side was usually done when it served a specific story. In any story that wasn't specifically about him needing to do something good, he said and did mostly bad things, and we loved him for it. We took into account that this was fiction, and that even though someone like Bart would be a pain to be around in real life and also be in need of a good psychiatrist for his own sake, this was ultimately inconsequential because, again, this was just fiction.

Once the millenial generation got a say in pop cultural products though, we entered an era where fiction was excepted to take into account reality in a way that wasn't expected before. That is, psychological, emotional and social reality. Someone like Bart is in modern fiction pretty much expected to be looked at, to a certain degree at least, through the lens of "What would make a person this way?" and "How would this person affect other people?" and "What can we, the writers, say about all of this that can give the audience further insights that can help them in their own social lives?". That last questin in particulat is one that I'm sure is rarely actually uttered or even thought about on a conscious level. It's just sort of in younger writers artistic DNA be both deconstructing and constuctive, as much as that sounds like an oxymoron. It's not just "Will people like this character?" it's "What kind of message is this character sendig?".

Someone like Bart whose defining charactertistic is being an absolute asshole and yet being portayed as lovable can still exist in modern media, but mostly in media that expclicitly revel in cyncism and offensiveness as part of it's main appeal... and The Simpsons is no and has never been anything like that. Even when it was egdy by 90's standrads it was still intended to be fundamentally a show about decent people who love each other. It's just that by 90's fiction standards Bart could be a decent and lovable person despite 95% of the time terrorizing others.

Nowadays in order for Bart not to look like a monster by the standards of modern writing, he pretty much has to have his antisocial tendencies explored and explained instead of simply existing as his main comedic appeal, and he pretty much has to have his badness watered down compared to who he was in 1990, at least unless he be repurpused as a downright villain (although even villains nowadays tend to have to have their evilness explored and explained...).

Bart aged out as a character. Now instead of badass Bart we have a troubled adolescent crying out to be accepted and whose occasional bad behaviour can always be resolved if the people involved are just being empathic enough to understand. So like yeah, a very realistic character but not very fucking charismatic or (worse yet) funny.
This actually reminds me of a quote from culture critic and developmental psycologist Tamaki Saitou's book Beautiful Fighting Girl:
Unlike Western space,which tries to anchor reality by preserving a sort of umbilical cord back to reality, Japanese space does not insist on this connection. Instead it actively attempts to separate and tear itself away bodily from everyday reality. We do not enjoy fiction because it is a form of virtual reality. We enjoy it because of its status as another reality, one that demands are arrangement of the subject.
The idea of observing real-life psychology in fictional characters is a tricky one, because writers, as a general statement of fact, do not factor in the concept of psychosis into their writing. Bart having ADHD is a concept which can definitely be derived from the text of some episodes (especially the aforementioned Bart Gets An F), but it also carries the baggage of putting a lot of the other things Bart does in the classic series, ranging from cruel, borderline malicious pranks to outright crimes such as vandalism and theft, under that same umbrella. Is that really something you want linking with a mental disorder? Obviously, I don't think anyone is outright suggesting that to be the case, but this is the fact which needs to be considered.

It's worth noting also that, up until Lisa's Sax, the series avoided giving any explicit, textual explanation for Bart's behaviour. It subtextually suggested a lot of things, ranging from Homer's poor parenting to the the general state of Springfield Elementary, but those were still just suggestions. And the reason is pretty clear - the implications of Bart's behaviour becomes a lot more bleak when given a clear origin story, because now we have a backstory where Bart was horribly bullied by his kindergarten teacher to the point of explicitly developing a psychosis, and yet his parents just....gave up on him, placing their attention on Lisa's natural gifts and leaving Bart to naturally develop amoral tendencies because it's the only way for him to find happiness. It's a really questionable premise to build the character on, nor does it reflect well on Homer and Marge as characters when they are supposed to be flawed but loving parents.
 
Western writers have become increasingly obsessed with pathologising characters since the turn of the century. Our culture is pre-occupied with individual identity, trauma, and mental illness. I can understand the impulse to explore these aspects of the human condition, but it comes with a cost (especially when legacy characters, whose conception pre-dates these considerations, are re-examined through that lens) - it often makes characters smaller, more problematic, and less allegorical.
 
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Also, slightly off topic, but I do find it funny seeing you mention that Lisa seems to be a favourite of the writers room and gets a lot of attention and all. That is a very common opinion like you say and seems to be actually be true, but as a big Lisa fan I've always felt like she could have more attention. At the end of every single season I always end up thinking, "I wish there were more Lisa episodes", but that's because I am such a big Lisa fan I guess. Heck if we had 21 episodes out of 22 about Lisa I'd probably be wishing the other one was about her too.
I actually think this is a double-edged sword to some extent. Because as much as the writer's room "loves to write for Lisa", they've saddled her with a litany of B-plots (which are fine) and largely whiffed on her A-plots.

When I think of modern classic episodes we've been treated to over the past 15 years of the HD era, you know how many I see that are Lisa-centric... ONE. One single, solitary episode... Halloween of Horror. An episode that she shares with her father.

Lisa's played a complimentary or supporting role in many well-received episodes in recent years (Iron Marge being one such example this season). But good luck finding a universally praised one that is largely built around her character. 'Cause they're all semingly polarizing to one group or another which is the polar opposite of what we were seeing out of her in the Classic era... where her use was much more sporadically, but when they wanted to give her the limelight they largely nailed it and hit a home run with it.

(I'm basing this assessment on the last refresh of the consensus HD favorite episodes of this forum from last fall.)

I would honestly love it if we saw less of Lisa's periphery utilization if it meant we actually got some focus episodes that nailed the execution AND wound up being uniiversally beloved. Because as much as you and I may enjoy episodes like Lisa's Belly or Daddicus Finch or The Hateful Eight-Year-Olds, those aren't exactly what I would call overwhelmingly praised.

Outside of Halloween of Horror, there are just 4 other Lisa-centric episodes in our HD era Top 50... two of which in Mr. Lisa's Opus and The Great Simpsina are likely to get dropped in the refresh next fall. Leaving just Girl's in the Band and Girls Just Shauna Have Fun in that tier... and I'm not even convinced of their staying power.

In general, I think these writers like Lisa so much they don't feel they have to try that hard when writing for her. Contrast with the measured interest in writing for Marge of late and building entire story concepts around her.
 
I actually think this is a double-edged sword to some extent. Because as much as the writer's room "loves to write for Lisa", they've saddled her with a litany of B-plots (which are fine) and largely whiffed on her A-plots.

When I think of modern classic episodes we've been treated to over the past 15 years of the HD era, you know how many I see that are Lisa-centric... ONE. One single, solitary episode... Halloween of Horror. An episode that she shares with her father.

Lisa's played a complimentary or supporting role in many well-received episodes in recent years (Iron Marge being one such example this season). But good luck finding a universally praised one that is largely built around her character. 'Cause they're all semingly polarizing to one group or another which is the polar opposite of what we were seeing out of her in the Classic era... where her use was much more sporadically, but when they wanted to give her the limelight they largely nailed it and hit a home run with it.

(I'm basing this assessment on the last refresh of the consensus HD favorite episodes of this forum from last fall.)

I would honestly love it if we saw less of Lisa's periphery utilization if it meant we actually got some focus episodes that nailed the execution AND wound up being uniiversally beloved. Because as much as you and I may enjoy episodes like Lisa's Belly or Daddicus Finch or The Hateful Eight-Year-Olds, those aren't exactly what I would call overwhelmingly praised.

Outside of Halloween of Horror, there are just 4 other Lisa-centric episodes in our HD era Top 50... two of which in Mr. Lisa's Opus and The Great Simpsina are likely to get dropped in the refresh next fall. Leaving just Girl's in the Band and Girls Just Shauna Have Fun in that tier... and I'm not even convinced of their staying power.

In general, I think these writers like Lisa so much they don't feel they have to try that hard when writing for her. Contrast with the measured interest in writing for Marge of late and building entire story concepts around her.
As I've said, Lisa's handling in the Selman seasons can be compared pretty directly to that of Bart, in that both siblings have largely been flattened into "the kids" with only really their baseline personalities remaining. It just feels like Lisa gets more, largely because she serves the additional purpose of acting as a liberal mouth-piece for the writers. The actual stories focusing on Lisa's self-image and sense of morality which defined her in the classic series meanwhile are almost completely gone. The closest is Lisa's Belly, but even that ends up more about Marge by the end than it is Lisa.
 
Western writers have become increasingly obsessed with pathologising characters since the turn of the century. Our culture is pre-occupied with individual identity, trauma, and mental illness. I can understand the impulse to explore these aspects of the human condition, but it comes with a cost (especially when legacy characters, whose conception pre-dates these considerations, are re-examined through that lens) - it often makes characters smaller, more problematic, and less allegorical.

Indeed. And it's interesting to watch when the current generation of writers set out to explore or explain an old character and the consequences of that characters actions if they took place in the real world, when that character was never built to reflect reailty. In practie, at worst, this can lead to the character essentially being declared a terrible and broken person which in turn pisses of longtime fans of that character. Other times it leads to the character being changed (for instance if the newer material consists of a continuity reboot) in a way where longtime fans can end up feeling like the character have been changed to a point where it doesn't even feel like the same character that they became fans of it the first place anymore.

Personally one such example for me is the live action movie version of Sonic the Hedgehog, where his constant show-off "I'm the best and I know it" attitude is portrayed as ultimately stemming from him being insecure due to suffering from abandonment in childhood, with his self-hyping acting out being an attempt to be appreciated by others. His entire motivation in the first movie is his need to be loved by others. Traditional Sonic was cool becasue he knew he was the best and therefore wasn't afraid to show it, and was pretty much (especially in the games themselves, and to varying degrees in other media) defined by his lack of need of approval from others. Sonic would show up when the day needed saving, meet up with his friends and be all like "long time no see" (indicating that he rarely hung out with them outside of their save-the-world adventures), beat up the bad guys and throw taunts around while doing it, and then leave untill he was needed again. He didn't need people to affirm his value, because again, he knew he was the best. Movie Sonic meanwhile has been turned into the exact polar opposite of all of this, a "please affirm that I have valure, please tell me that you love me" type of person that is certainly more realistic than classic Sonic but not nearly as cool.

I'll tell you this much, I would dread the day when current western writers get a hold of Goku from Dragon Ball, and try to explore the actual psychology behind a man who will abandon his wife and children because he would rather participate in violence, and the realistic effects that this mans behaviour would have on his children. Loveable, idealized free spirit Goku would be gone and "absolute monster of a man who needs to repent and do better" Goku would be born...:(

On a final note though, I want to state tham I am in fact not at all against the writing of psychologically accurate and realistic characters, nor against examining those characters actions from a real-life standpoint. Often times the best part of a novel or movie or other piece of fiction can be seeing yourself in the phsychological details of the characters. I love the movies of Ingmar Bergman with their exploration of how humans can love and hate each other at the same time, and one of the reasons I love the books of Stephen King (and which the movie adaptions often can't keep) is precisely because they feature fantastical events and yet completely realistic people. "How would someone actually react to seeing a werewolf?" and similar questions are often the main appeal of his stories for me). The problem with a lot of younger writers is, as far as I'm concerned, a lack of realization that sometimes you need to pick who and what to examine and deconstruct, and who and what NOT to do that with. Some characters are appreciated because of something about them that is completely unrealistic, maybe even something downright shallow, and that's fine. You shouldn't feel like you have to approach Goku with "How would his treatment of Gohan emotionally scar the boy, and what exactly is it that Goku lacks that make him unable to see the damage he is doing, and how could he make himself better?". Ffs, Goku is cool because he beats up bad guys and doesn't give a shit about anything else. Sonic is cool becaue he's the best and he knows it and if you disagree he will tell you as much, but he doesn't actually need you'r approval. And Bart is a lovable hellraiser with, yes, a good heart underneeth it all, but the reason we love him and find him entertaining is in fact the badness that encapsulates that good core, not the good core itself.
 
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Personally one such example for me is the live action movie version of Sonic the Hedgehog, where his constant show-off "I'm the best and I know it" attitude is portrayed as ultimately stemming from him being insecure due to suffering from abandonment in childhood, with his self-hyping acting out being an attempt to be appreciated by others.
I hear you completely. I have an equally strong objection to the recent pathologising of Star Trek's Jean Luc Picard - a character whose philosophical leanings, moral convictions, and sense of duty was unquestioned and beyond reproach. The Jean Luc Picard of Star Trek: The Next Generation was better than us. He knew better. He acted better. He was larger than life. He was aspirational. We were compelled to model ourselves on his example. The Jean Luc Picard of Star Trek: Picard is unrecognisable - he's ostensibly more "human" and "complex", but he's actually more "faulty" and "prone to failures" which is apparently more "relatable". This is antithetical to the character - a fundamental philosophical misunderstanding of who he was and what the show he was emblematic of represented.

I'll tell you this much, I would dread the day when current western writers get a hold of Goku from Dragon Ball, and try to explore the actual psychology behind a man who will abandon his wife and children because he would rather participate in violence, and the realistic effects that this mans behaviour would have on his children. Loveable, idealized free spirit Goku would be gone and "absolute monster of a man who needs to repent and do better" Goku would be born...:(
So true!
 
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