Meta Analysis and Narrative Infrastructure Thread

[Kangdos]

Returning to this because of something I noticed, but the attempt to make Marge a more "colorful" character can actually be seen in the Scully seasons, where she developed this habit....really weird behaviour, such as in the beginning of Lisa the Tree Hugger (fittingly enough, an episode Selman wrote). It's rarely given much if any attention, but I get the impression at least it was an attempt to counter-act the complaints of her being "boring".

Then again, EVERYONE became sillier during the Scully era. But maybe Marge moresoe than any other, since she had been almost painfully straight for the entire lifespan of the show so far compared to nearly every other character.

 

[I Love Lisa]

You're not wrong about a good chunk of Lisa's Classic era fare getting sidelined in favour of other characters (mainly Homer) even for episodes that universally well-liked. But seeing how I invoked this line of argument and want to make a distinction versus the HD era's reception (at least in these quarters), I'd like to dive into this somewhat more deeply.

We held our last top episode poll as a community back in 2022. Here's the Top 50 with the Lisa-centric episodes highlighted...

1. Cape Feare
2. Who Shot Mr. Burns? (Part One)
3. Summer of 4 ft. 2
4. Treehouse of Horror V
5. Homer the Heretic
6. Lisa’s Substitute
7. Last Exit to Springfield
8. Mother Simpson
9. Homer at the Bat
10. Rosebud
11. Homer’s Enemy
12. Marge vs. the Monorail
13. And Maggie Makes Three
14. Homer Badman
15. Bart Sells His Soul
16. 22 Short Films About Springfield
17. Lisa’s First Word (I consider this to be more Bart-centric than anything)
18. Bart Gets an F
19. You Only Move Twice
20. Homer the Great
21. King-Size Homer
22. The Way We Was
23. Homer’s Triple Bypass
24. The City of New York vs. Homer Simpson
25. Itchy & Scratchy Land
26. Lemon of Troy
27. Who Shot Mr. Burns? (Part Two)
28. Duffless
29. One Fish, Two Fish, Blowfish, Blue Fish
30. Bart’s Comet
31. Homer vs. the Eighteenth Amendment
32. The Springfield Files
33. I Married Marge
34. Lisa the Vegetarian
35. The Cartridge Family
36. El Viaje Misterioso de Nuestro Jomer
37. Two Cars in Every Garage and Three Eyes on Every Fish
38. Bart on the Road
39. The Last Temptation of Homer
40. Mr. Plow
41. $pringfield (or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Legalized Gambling)
42. Deep Space Homer
43. Homie the Clown
44. Lisa’s Wedding
45. Marge Be Not Proud
46. The Itchy & Scratchy & Poochie Show
47. Homer vs. Lisa and the 8th Commandment
48. A Streetcar Named Marge
49. Treehouse of Horror IV
50. Bart of Darkness

So we have 6 clear Lisa-centric episodes in total (one with her in a proxy role)... with Lisa on Ice, I Love Lisa and Lisa's Pony all close by on the proverbial Top 50 bubble.

Now let's look at the consensus HD era Top 50 from last September with the same approach, bearing in mind that A Mid-Childhood Night's Dream, Clan of the Cave Mom and Iron Marge (which you could argue is shared Bart/Lisa-centric although it's probably just an overall family+Agnes episode in terms of focus) will all make the cut next fall and Do the Wrong Thing will make a solid play for inclusion as well.

Treehouse of Horror XXXIII - 4.51
The Way of the Dog - 4.43
The Last Barfighter - 4.41
A Serious Flanders - 4.38
Halloween of Horror - 4.25
The Dad-Feelings Limited - 4.25
Holidays of Future Passed - 4.24
Bartless - 4.24
Pixelated and Afraid - 4.21
Thanksgiving of Horror - 4.13
Brick Like Me - 4.11 (I consider this to be more Homer-centric than anything)
Eeny Teeny Maya Moe - 4.07
Oh Brother, Where Bart Thou? - 4.05
Gone Boy - 4.03
Barthood - 4.01
There Will Be Buds - 3.98
Forgive and Regret - 3.94
The Book Job - 3.93
Treehouse of Horror XX - 3.92
Lisa the Boy Scout - 3.91
Gone Maggie Gone - 3.91 (probably fair to treat this just like WSMB Part 2 in terms of being Lisa-focused as she's the audience proxy for solving a mystery)
The Town - 3.90
Not It - 3.89
Boys N the Highlands - 3.89
King Leer - 3.88
Girls Just Shauna Have Fun - 3.88
Livin' la Pura Vida - 3.86
Homer's Adventures Through the Windshield Glass - 3.84
Treehouse of Horror XXXI - 3.84
I, Carumbus - 3.82
Step Brother from the Same Planet - 3.82
Bart the Bad Guy - 3.81
I Won't Be Home for Christmas - 3.81
Steal This Episode - 3.80
Uncut Femmes - 3.79
Homer Is Where the Art Isn't - 3.77
Girl's in the Band - 3.76
Homer Scissorhands - 3.76
Carl Carlson Rides Again - 3.73
Mr. Lisa's Opus - 3.71
Poorhouse Rock - 3.71
Sky Police - 3.70
Homer the Father - 3.69
Postcards from the Wedge - 3.69
A Totally Fun Thing That Bart Will Never Do Again - 3.68
The Good, the Sad and the Drugly - 3.68
The Great Simpsina - 3.68
The Food Wife - 3.67
Fland Canyon - 3.67
Dangers on a Train - 3.67

(Anything in that highlighted bubble group could easily slip out in next fall's recalibration.)

I suppose, on the surface, these results are pretty similar... which I'm admittedly surprised by. Once again, we have 6 clear Lisa-centric episodes in total (one with her in a proxy role). Two of these are on the fringe of getting culled, however (Simpsina missing the cut next fall is super likely) with Girl's in the Band on the edge of the safe zone. We also have some additional Top 50 Lisa-centric bubble episodes like Daddicus Finch, The Marge-ian Chronicles and Lisa Simpson, This Isn't Your Life.

This kinda looks to me like it's proving my point that Lisa episodes can be perhaps unfairly overlooked to be honest. The fact that there's the exact same amount of her stories in either list really stands out to me (as does the fact that the majority of them come in the bottom half of both) and the slim numbers she's getting in both lists just looks wrong in my eyes. I want to really stress here that I'm not trying to be judgemental or tell anyone that they're actually wrong for their preferences about episodes/characters, but speaking from purely my own personal point of view the fact that, for example, I Love Lisa (an episode I love enough to name myself after it) doesn't even make the consensus top 50 is genuinely wild and almost unbelievable to me.

Approaching this from my own very pro-Lisa perspective then and how if I was in charge, both lists would be mostly full of her episodes, how can I come to any conclusion other than that Lisa episodes aren't any weaker than the others as a group, but simply don't get the appreciation I feel they deserve? (Of course I wasn't involved in the creation of either list, so it's entirely possible a few more of hers would have been bumped up a little if I was!)

I think the big difference that sticks out for me is the absence of a 2nd all-around universally beloved Lisa-focused episode to go with Halloween of Horror (not unlike the Classic era's one-two punch of Substitute and 4 Ft. 2). We do be needing one of those.

I really, really like Halloween of Horror so I absolutely would love another of that quality for sure, but again I will say that for me, there already are plenty of Lisa focused episodes amongst the best of the HD era alongside HoH (you've mentioned a few already, but to give another example, I saw The Girl on the Bus recently and loved it, but I've never really seen anyone talk about it). Not to sound dismissive of others' opinions, but if other people don't enjoy them as much as I do then I can only say that's their loss I guess? I like them and it would be nice if other people enjoyed them like I do sure, but I can't make anyone love The Girl on the Bus or anything else can I?

It has not been lost on me that Moe of all people has a stronger trio of focus episodes in this above group (Barfighter, Maya, Leer) than Lisa has with even a pair. That feels wrong.

Additionally, the perennially forgotten about Bart has some gems here as well between the trio of Barthood, Bart Thou and Gone Boy. That's 3 solid episodes before Lisa gets her 2nd... and Bart has her covered there too with his Shauna-equivalent (Highlands) and his In the Band-equivalent (Bad Guy).

It's also worth pointing out that Bart, for all the accusations about how the writers forget about him and favour Lisa, actually has more episodes on HD era list than Lisa outright. I really don't think Bart has better episodes in general than Lisa (although I am biased here and I know that) so his bigger footprint here (and Moe's surprisingly large impression as well) point towards Bart and Moe just seeming to be more popular characters in general than Lisa is, so their episodes score higher even if they aren't actually better because people like them better. It seems very odd to me personally, but Lisa just seems to be one of the less popular characters overall so her episodes seem to get somewhat overlooked unless they do something "special" (like HoH having the standout gimmick of being a Halloween episode that's not a THOH).

But there's also what you say about how it isn't really about the issue of quality of the Lisa plots (not all the time) but rather that there's many viewers and fans whom aren't such big fans of her as a character, and as the amount of her episodes and just storylines in general growing and Bart, whom used to be one of the most prominent characters along with Homer, have become a bit more marginalized (at least in terms of stories that focus on him as the lead as opposed to a supporting player in Lisa stories, for one), more are picking up on the fact that Lisa get so much attention (the latter of which may indeed have to do with the writers being such big Lisa fans).

So the bottom line here is that Lisa's prominence has arguably increased since the classic era and Bart isn't as much of a focal character anymore, especially if Jean has anything to say about it (while Selman seem more open to Bart episodes) and that is why many people respond more negatively to Lisa and her episodes these days, with some even retroactive having shifted their positive opinion toward Lisa into something more negative and outright toxic at worst (and I suspect Bart may have more fans than Lisa).

You bring up a very interesting point here actually. Bart is obviously a very popular character (and with very good cause! He's not my favourite of course, but he's a great character still) and it does seem to be a very common feeling and complaint that he gets less focus now than he used to. I do think there is something to that as well (even if I haven't actually counted his focus episodes to actually check) so Bart becoming less relevant is a valid complaint to make, but I really don't think complaining about Lisa getting more attention is valid.

For one thing, why shouldn't she get more attention? She's a brilliant character who deserves her time in the spotlight and I always like to see her get more plots and so on. But more than that, there does seem to be a feeling from some people (even subconsciously) that somehow if Lisa gets more attention then that's the reason Bart gets less? That somehow his reduced focus is Lisa's "fault" in some way and that's just rubbish. There's more than enough time and episodes to give both Bart and Lisa attention and any increase in Lisa doesn't have to mean less Bart so it's really unfair to hate on Lisa for somehow taking up Bart's screentime (which she isn't). There also seems to be a feeling amongst certain people out there that you sort of have to pick a side between the two of them and if you like Bart then you have to hate Lisa which is just silly. There's no reason you can't like both and I certainly do (even if I like Lisa best).

Also about whether there actually has been an increase in Lisa's prominence since the classic era and Brad's argument about her being in "quality over quantity bucket", my curiosity got the better of me so I actually counted it out to see how that all actually pans out! I'm just counting actual "Lisa episodes" here not any with her in a prominent supporting or sub-plot role (and also not including any lead roles in Treehouse of Horrors or multi-part episodes like them) and there's a number which are arguable whether they count as focus episodes for her or not, but by my count her numbers are, season by season:

1. 1
2. 2
3. 4
4. 2
5. 1
6. 3
7. 4
8. 4
9. 5
10. 4
11. 3
12. 2
13. 2
14. 5
15. 3
16. 3
17. 4
18. 2
19. 4
20. 4
21. 3
22. 6
23. 4
24. 1
25. 4
26. 1
27. 7
28. 0
29. 4
30. 4
31. 3
32. 3
33. 4
34. 2
35 (so far). 2

Lisa episode maths time!
110 episodes out of 763 total. Roughly 14.42% of the entire series.
26 of 203 classic era episodes (for simplicity's sake, I'm using my personal defition of the classic era which includes 9). Roughly 12.8%.
9 of 66 post-classic Scully episodes. Roughly 13.64%.
23 of 151 pre-HD Jean era episodes. Roughly 15.23%.
52 of 351 HD era episodes (including all of season 20). Roughly 14.81%.
84 of 560 post-classic era episodes overall. Roughly 15%.

Maybe a mad thing to do, but I think the results are interesting! The numbers do bear out the idea that Lisa gets more focus after the classic era, but with her focus episodes increasing from 12.8% of the show to 15% it's hardly an astronomic rise. A rise of just 2.2% in her A-plots hardly shows a massive boost of interest in Lisa writing from the staff and in fact seems to back up my vague feeling that the amount of focus on her seems to remain roughly even across the seasons. Even in her busiest era (the teen years), her percantage of main storylines only gets another 0.23% boost on the series overall average so I do still feel that Lisa could be used more than she is despite her common label of "writer's pet" and the numbers do give my crazy fangirl-ness some backing I think.

(I also think it's interesting that the highest number in 27 with it's whopping total of 7 (blowing my vague feeling of 9 being the most Lisa-y season out of the water) was immediately followed by 28's horrendous zero. How did that even happen? )

(Also you're not a crazy fangirl rambling, but a passionate Lisa fan speaking about your favorite character, leading to a lot of interesting posts and discussions. And that I do like so keep on with what you are doing, if you'd like).

wonder if lisa would be just as hated if she werent a girl

This post is already way too long, but I just wanted to say that I do think there is a real point here. I've talked about at length before and I'm kinda exhausted from all the typing already, but I really do think that Lisa gets more hate (although not on this site thankfully!) just because she's a girl and not a boy.

 

[Brad Lascelle]

(I also think it's interesting that the highest number in 27 with it's whopping total of 7 (blowing my vague feeling of 9 being the most Lisa-y season out of the water) was immediately followed by 28's horrendous zero. How did that even happen? )

Just to add some context to this anomaly but this was right around the time where Yeardley fell down a flight of steps and broke her neck... so it stands to reason they would ease up on writing much for Lisa while she was recovering from her injuries.

 

[Meko]

Just to add some context to this anomaly but this was right around the time where Yeardley fell down a flight of steps and broke her neck... so it stands to reason they would ease up on writing much for Lisa while she was recovering from her injuries.

i never heard about that omg, glad she was okay after

 

[Jackomon]

Just to add some context to this anomaly but this was right around the time where Yeardley fell down a flight of steps and broke her neck... so it stands to reason they would ease up on writing much for Lisa while she was recovering from her injuries.

Yikes, glad she was able to recover from it.

 

[Brad Lascelle]

i never heard about that omg, glad she was okay after

Head to this link if you want to listen to Yeardley recount the incident during her podcast interview from 2020 with Ethan Suplee. Jump to the 49-minute mark.

 

[I Love Lisa]

Just to add some context to this anomaly but this was right around the time where Yeardley fell down a flight of steps and broke her neck... so it stands to reason they would ease up on writing much for Lisa while she was recovering from her injuries.

Oh gosh I never knew that happened (I wasn't in the loop at all back then, just casually watching). Thank god she recovered and I'm amazed she was able to do anything that year!

 

[GlitterCat]

I had no idea she had such a bad accident, I'm really glad she's okay now.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

This post is already way too long, but I just wanted to say that I do think there is a real point here. I've talked about at length before and I'm kinda exhausted from all the typing already, but I really do think that Lisa gets more hate (although not on this site thankfully!) just because she's a girl and not a boy.

This is going into complex gender studies stuff (and I'm not gonna assume anyone has read The Second Sex, even I've only skimmed it), but there is a pretty fundamental cultural context that effects how people perceive actions as committed by the female sex, especially when the observer is male. The discussion surrounding Bart's Girlfriend is one of the most overt cases - I've seen multiple people say they hate the episode seemingly on the basis of Jessica being "too malicious" (which isn't even accurate, since her framing Bart is motivated by pragmatism), despite not batting a single eye at a grown man trying to kill Bart out of revenge multiple times.

 

[GlitterCat]

I've noticed that some characters get free passes. In bobs burgers the character Felix threatens Bob and landlord Calvin with a gun yet Calvin knowingly let's Felix's girlfriend take the fall, and after that felix is reframed as a hammy but harmless manchild and Calvin is a 'lovable' rich eccentric even though he breaks multiple laws, and is a greedy capitalist who can pick and choose who is blamed for felonies. #wacky hijinx

Who are among the least popular characters? A woman who runs over Louise's tricycle, the mother of a surly teenage bully, a bratty rich Jewish princess who peer pressured Tina (but they've since become friendlier... once Tina hijacked her bat mitzvah), Felix's girlfriend who -gasps- has a bad singing voice yet dreams of stardom- but otherwise her crimes are the same as Felix, and the chalk lady who... made Linda wait in line at the store, then worked on a chalk festival Linda purposefully destroyed but that's okay because Dierdre the chalk lady made an insult about Linda smelling bad (Linda had been sprayed by a skunk) so clearly chalk lady had it coming. Sigh

I left that shows fandom because the popular characters were forgiven for everything while the unfavorite deserved every bad thing they got. Checked out when Tina's perviness got ratcheted up EVEN MORE and her victims painted as in the wrong (an over medicated boy who could not consent that she gaslighted into believing they were dating, causing his actual gf to dump him and tank his reputation)

and Louise's stalker being portrayed as just someone lonely and quirky, not a budding psychopath who skipped away merrily leaving louise and friends to die in an alleyway (they narrowly escape but its supposed to be comical that this yandere bitch would be okay with murder by inaction because louise didn't like her halloween costume.) No louise must learn to love and tolerate Millie this horrible scary obsessive mood swinger.

Tldr there have always been popular characters who might even be willing to kill that the fan base whitewashes while characters with lesser crimes are looked at negatively. Sideshow Bob is beloved, Jessica is not. Sometimes this discrepancy happens along gender lines, sometimes it doesn't.

 

[CousinMerl]

Just to add some context to this anomaly but this was right around the time where Yeardley fell down a flight of steps and broke her neck... so it stands to reason they would ease up on writing much for Lisa while she was recovering from her injuries.

It's kind of a miracle things turned out a whole lot better han what could've happened. I mean, she could've been paralyzed or been... well
Super glad that she could recover from that nasty accident (which I had no idea of happened).

But yeah that accident seem to line up with the turnout with the amount of Lisa episodes going from season 27 to season 28 (hey, maybe no Lisa episodes was a reason that 28 didn't turn out very well? Always felt it lacked and the absence of Lisa episodes was probably one).

 

[CousinMerl]

You bring up a very interesting point here actually. Bart is obviously a very popular character (and with very good cause! He's not my favourite of course, but he's a great character still) and it does seem to be a very common feeling and complaint that he gets less focus now than he used to. I do think there is something to that as well (even if I haven't actually counted his focus episodes to actually check) so Bart becoming less relevant is a valid complaint to make, but I really don't think complaining about Lisa getting more attention is valid.

I absolutely don't think that complaining about Lisa taking attention from bart is a valid complain, but rather something I feel is born out of some form of bias and a sense of hyperbole by those more or less intolerant of Lisa, and those peole tend to be the loudest.

For one thing, why shouldn't she get more attention? She's a brilliant character who deserves her time in the spotlight and I always like to see her get more plots and so on.

Lisa is obviously worthy of at least as much attention as Bart, but I can still see why some think it's unfair to see Bart get much less attention these days, but that shouldn't mean there should be a lack of Lisa stories, so I'll again refer to that balance that need to be struck, akin to the classic era where they had more or less an equal amount of focus episodes to them, which obviously shifted over the years.

But more than that, there does seem to be a feeling from some people (even subconsciously) that somehow if Lisa gets more attention then that's the reason Bart gets less? That somehow his reduced focus is Lisa's "fault" in some way and that's just rubbish. There's more than enough time and episodes to give both Bart and Lisa attention and any increase in Lisa doesn't have to mean less Bart so it's really unfair to hate on Lisa for somehow taking up Bart's screentime (which she isn't). There also seems to be a feeling amongst certain people out there that you sort of have to pick a side between the two of them and if you like Bart then you have to hate Lisa which is just silly. There's no reason you can't like both and I certainly do (even if I like Lisa best).

I think it is important to not get worked up by those fans, whom all seem to fall in under some sort of Anti-Lisa category (and I've already discussed those Lisa haters and how it encompasses both sexists and anti-intellectualists, many of whom think Lisa and her portayal as the smart one in the wacky family takes away from the show, and whatnot before so I won't go into that more for now).

It do feel like here's some sort of weird insecurity regarding the preference of Bart over Lisa in these regards (and it also factors into what has already been said about Bart more often being forgiven than Lisa these days, with Lisa and her bad deeds, no matter how small, tend to get a lot more criticism than when Bart do something equal or worse), so yeah, it becomes unfair, especially to just.... simply blame the decrease of Bart stories & episodes on the increase of Lisa stories and episodes. Makes no good sense, really.

And those Bart vs. Lisa camps you speak of make no sense either: Why should I have to pick one side and hate the other character. I prefer Bart, but I still think Lisa is great and I won't go ahead criticizing and/or hating her (unless the character writing sucks or something like that, which is when criticism is due and quite fair) I don't go hate characters for essentially no good reason).

Also about whether there actually has been an increase in Lisa's prominence since the classic era and Brad's argument about her being in "quality over quantity bucket", my curiosity got the better of me so I actually counted it out to see how that all actually pans out! I'm just counting actual "Lisa episodes" here not any with her in a prominent supporting or sub-plot role (and also not including any lead roles in Treehouse of Horrors or multi-part episodes like them) and there's a number which are arguable whether they count as focus episodes for her or not, but by my count her numbers are, season by season:

Never expected you to do a full breakdown of the amount of Lisa focus episodes on a season to season basis, but kind of loving the fact that in your Lisa obsession you actually went ahead and did it. Thats great. It should definitely clear some things out and weed out any misconceptions or miscontruations. Which brings me to the next part of this post:

Maybe a mad thing to do, but I think the results are interesting! The numbers do bear out the idea that Lisa gets more focus after the classic era, but with her focus episodes increasing from 12.8% of the show to 15% it's hardly an astronomic rise. A rise of just 2.2% in her A-plots hardly shows a massive boost of interest in Lisa writing from the staff and in fact seems to back up my vague feeling that the amount of focus on her seems to remain roughly even across the seasons. Even in her busiest era (the teen years), her percantage of main storylines only gets another 0.23% boost on the series overall average so I do still feel that Lisa could be used more than she is despite her common label of "writer's pet" and the numbers do give my crazy fangirl-ness some backing I think.

Yeah, I suppose this could be viewed as a bit mad, haha, but I appreciate you putting this kind of effort into it to sort things out regarding the topic of Lisa episodes and their prominence. The results are intriguing, lining up to what I had been thinking of an somewhat increase after the classic era, even though it's not a massive one at all, but it is a bit notable to a degree, I feel.

But still, this shows that she was far from taking over the series or anything, at least in terms of focal episodes, but I do think that cpinting subplots and major supporting roles in non-Lisa centric episodes (at least as a major player), there would no doubt be more of a difference, lining up with what I had been thinking on these roles probably making the bigger difference than Lisa-led episodes themselves.

So yeah, I think it is completely fair to ask for more Lisa on the show, all without her plots and episodes oversaturating the series, but at the same time, I think the same can go for wanting to see more Bart usage as he's not exactly overused either.

And speaking of Bart, now I really would love if anyone (maybe you @I Love Lisa?) did the same kind of breakdown for the amount of Bart-led episodes per season: Then we'd find out if Bart truly get less episodes or not, as assumed by a lot of the critics who find Bart having less of a prominence these days (and can put that question to rest). I think that'd be fair too.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

Adding to my prior point about fandom misogyny, I find it deeply fascinating how so much of the hatred against Lisa seems specifically motivated to make her appear like a terrible person and thus somehow a terrible character, accomplished via spinning as negative a spin on every event possible, while at the same time also trying to reframe Bart as the real "better sibling" whilst ignoring practically every genuinely inexcusable thing he's done. Arguments like this (which, from what I understand, is a decidedly common subject in the Spanish-speaking part of the internet) aren't just an interpretation, they're a purposeful attempt to rebel against the textual canon of the show. And that interpretation seems specifically motivated out from the perspective that Lisa is female, that somehow she "isn't deserving" of the actual struggles she endures. I'm not entirely sure how to describe it, but the dichotomy sticks out a lot to me.

 

[Quilloughby]

Lisa is my favorite character in the series, and for me there's no argument the only reason she's increasingly more and more hated on the Internet is plain misogyny. She's an intelligent, vegetarian, enviromentalist, feminist and bisexual eight-year-old girl who is generally used in the most famous animated sitcom in history as the voice of reason. Of course the worst corners of the internet hate her! That's exactly the reason why she's still the best.

Another issue is trying to separate the characters of a 35-season animated sitcom into good or bad people. Truth is... I don't think any main character in a good sitcom with more than two episodes can ever be classified as a good person. Characters have to be flawed, be liars, be even selfish and sometimes (why not) mean when needed to give rise to plots and gags. The key to a good show is do this in a sincere and fun way, while you get in love with the characters and the world. Sometimes I think fandoms try to summarize the characters they love in a definition or a concept, instead of seeing them as tools to tell good stories. What's the meaning of something like "Batman doesn't kill"? I've read thousands of Batman comics in my life and I've seen all of his live-action movies... in most of them he kills people all the time either intentionally, accidentally or carelessly! You can say "I don't like when Batman is written as a carelessly killer" and that's fine, of course, but that doesn't mean that you can't write a good and competent story about Batman killing people. There's dozens of it, actually.

What does seem stupid to me from a writer point-of-view and what I think really hurts a long-running character like any of the ones in 'The Simpsons' is when a character is taken to a extreme but you don't dare to do anything either funny or even interesting with it. Like, for example, I hated the subplot in McMansion & Wife, but not because "Lisa would never be a cyberbully, Lisa would never be into doxxing". She could, and that would be interesting and funny if you know how to write her! What we have instead is a couple of scenes of Lisa being awfully mean with Nelson in a cruel way and then an out-of-camera settling. Even Hubert says to us "I've learned everything there is to learn about Lisa. It made me realize if someone doesn't help her family, and soon, she's gonna go off the rails in a very bad way". Ooooh, so that's what this subplot was about? That's great, that's interesting! Can you elaborate? Oh, ok, you're finished, nevermind.

 

[I Love Lisa]

I absolutely don't think that complaining about Lisa taking attention from bart is a valid complain, but rather something I feel is born out of some form of bias and a sense of hyperbole by those more or less intolerant of Lisa, and those peole tend to be the loudest.

Ha ha if people intolerant of Lisa tend to be the loudest, maybe I should just get louder myself? (Actually I do prefer to just not engage the more toxic stuff because then you just get in shouting arguments and end up dropping down to their level)

Lisa is obviously worthy of at least as much attention as Bart, but I can still see why some think it's unfair to see Bart get much less attention these days, but that shouldn't mean there should be a lack of Lisa stories, so I'll again refer to that balance that need to be struck, akin to the classic era where they had more or less an equal amount of focus episodes to them, which obviously shifted over the years.

Oh yeah balance is the ideal. I do absolutely see why some people think it's unfair for Bart to get less attention because he deserves time in the spotlight just like Lisa (and Homer and Marge as well) does. I'm a Lisa fan of course, but if I was a Bart fan instead I would definitely be upset if I thought he was getting ignored so I really do empathise. I just don't think it's fair to blame Lisa (or any other character) for any percieved decline in Bart because it's not her fault.

I think it is important to not get worked up by those fans, whom all seem to fall in under some sort of Anti-Lisa category (and I've already discussed those Lisa haters and how it encompasses both sexists and anti-intellectualists, many of whom think Lisa and her portayal as the smart one in the wacky family takes away from the show, and whatnot before so I won't go into that more for now).

Yeah sorry if I was getting too worked up there. Since the conversation's starting to talk about sexism and all that unpleasantness I do think this is a good point actually to make really clear that I don't resent anyone for not liking Lisa or anything like that. I worry talking about this stuff that people will think that I'm accusing non-Lisa fans of being misogynists or something, but that's not true at all! There are rotten sexists and stuff out there who hate her for being a girl or something equally nasty yeah, but if someone just doesn't care for her for non-toxic, valid reasons then that's perfectly fair. I love Lisa, but that doesn't mean everyone has to!

And those Bart vs. Lisa camps you speak of make no sense either: Why should I have to pick one side and hate the other character. I prefer Bart, but I still think Lisa is great and I won't go ahead criticizing and/or hating her (unless the character writing sucks or something like that, which is when criticism is due and quite fair) I don't go hate characters for essentially no good reason).

That's exactly the sort of thing I mean. I totally respect that other people like yourself prefer Bart and I think it's great that different people have different favourites (plus I do genuinely like Bart myself!). Criticising bad writing like you say is perfectly fair and valid and I will say so if I think Lisa's being handled wrong myself (like in McMansion and Wife), but hating on characters for no good reason is just trolling. I'd never want to insult someone else's favourite character precisely because I know how hurtful it feels to me when someone hates Lisa just for being Lisa you know? (And there aren't really any characters I hate anyway)

Never expected you to do a full breakdown of the amount of Lisa focus episodes on a season to season basis, but kind of loving the fact that in your Lisa obsession you actually went ahead and did it. Thats great. It should definitely clear some things out and weed out any misconceptions or miscontruations. Which brings me to the next part of this post:

Ha ha well I've been sort of curious to try and actually do a breakdown like that for a while and this seemed like the right thread to do it in (especially with the conversation moving on to Lisa and her role in the show). I'm not sure how scientific it is since there's probably episodes I counted that others wouldn't and vice versa, but I'm glad it was appreciated!

Yeah, I suppose this could be viewed as a bit mad, haha, but I appreciate you putting this kind of effort into it to sort things out regarding the topic of Lisa episodes and their prominence. The results are intriguing, lining up to what I had been thinking of an somewhat increase after the classic era, even though it's not a massive one at all, but it is a bit notable to a degree, I feel.

But still, this shows that she was far from taking over the series or anything, at least in terms of focal episodes, but I do think that cpinting subplots and major supporting roles in non-Lisa centric episodes (at least as a major player), there would no doubt be more of a difference, lining up with what I had been thinking on these roles probably making the bigger difference than Lisa-led episodes themselves.

Yeah it interesting to see that there is a genuine increase in her focus time even if it's not by all that much. Just enough for it to feel noticeable I'd say, but a long way from her ever looking like taking over the series as you put it. It absolutely would look different if counting her more major supporting roles and subplots though, because something I noticed when I was looking through all the episodes is that there's a lot where the wiki plot summary includes a sentence that starts with, "Meanwhile Lisa..." Major non-focus roles are such a vague thing to try and count though because at what point do you count something as "major" or "minor"? It was just easier to focus entirely on her lead roles and @Brad Lascelle was talking about her A plots anyway so there we go.

So yeah, I think it is completely fair to ask for more Lisa on the show, all without her plots and episodes oversaturating the series, but at the same time, I think the same can go for wanting to see more Bart usage as he's not exactly overused either.

And speaking of Bart, now I really would love if anyone (maybe you @I Love Lisa?) did the same kind of breakdown for the amount of Bart-led episodes per season: Then we'd find out if Bart truly get less episodes or not, as assumed by a lot of the critics who find Bart having less of a prominence these days (and can put that question to rest). I think that'd be fair too.

Oh absolutely! It would be more than fair to have the same sort of breakdown for Bart's episodes for comparison and I would be very interested to see the results of that myself. My feeling is that Bart would have more overall than Lisa, but possibly a reverse trend where he starts with more and it slightly goes down with time rather than hers slightly going up? Going through the Lisa ones was kind of exhausting already though, so if anyone else wants to volunteer to count through all her brother's episodes, then I'd appreciate it immensely!

This is going into complex gender studies stuff (and I'm not gonna assume anyone has read The Second Sex, even I've only skimmed it), but there is a pretty fundamental cultural context that effects how people perceive actions as committed by the female sex, especially when the observer is male. The discussion surrounding Bart's Girlfriend is one of the most overt cases - I've seen multiple people say they hate the episode seemingly on the basis of Jessica being "too malicious" (which isn't even accurate, since her framing Bart is motivated by pragmatism), despite not batting a single eye at a grown man trying to kill Bart out of revenge multiple times.

I've not come across that book actually, but skimming the Wikipedia page is fairly interesting. I do think there's a definite sexist element to sharper, more toxic end of Lisa hate (which thankfully this site seems devoid of and I really love it for that!), but I am wary of turning this into a girls vs. boys argument because that just upsets people and doesn't help either the girls or the boys. I'll just reiterate my point from earlier in the post that if someone doesn't like Lisa because she just doesn't click with them then that's perfectly fine and I have no problem with that whatsoever, but if they hate her essentially for being a girl (which is where I feel a lot of the aimless hate in places like youtube does come from) then that's plain misogyny and I obviously have a very big problem with that.

 

[Nitsy]

Wait, Lisa's bi?

 

[CousinMerl]

Adding to my prior point about fandom misogyny, I find it deeply fascinating how so much of the hatred against Lisa seems specifically motivated to make her appear like a terrible person and thus somehow a terrible character, accomplished via spinning as negative a spin on every event possible, while at the same time also trying to reframe Bart as the real "better sibling" whilst ignoring practically every genuinely inexcusable thing he's done.

Yeah, I saw you spoke earlier of trying to whitewash Bart's bad deed while clanking down on Lisa's actions, many of which aren't even the slightest bit hostile (and the demonizing of her for minor infractions get really ridiculous), and I do think it is interesting. Though again, I think it's all due to that common more or less sexist fan rage on Lisa and how here mere being on the show with her intelligence, progressive attitudes and whatnot seem to piss so many off (I'm also thinking of how things like progressiveness and inclusion seem to make a huge portion of haters blow their tops ever since the mid-2010's or so, where things started to get really toxic and ugly).

It's it absolutely noteable how most vocal haters often seem to fall into that Anti-Lisa camp and rarely, if ever, tend to vocally and openly hate on other characters (I mean, even Marge tend to be really safe from that kind of ire). It is always Lisa.

Arguments like this (which, from what I understand, is a decidedly common subject in the Spanish-speaking part of the internet) aren't just an interpretation, they're a purposeful attempt to rebel against the textual canon of the show. And that interpretation seems specifically motivated out from the perspective that Lisa is female, that somehow she "isn't deserving" of the actual struggles she endures. I'm not entirely sure how to describe it, but the dichotomy sticks out a lot to me.

Why do many of these Spanish fans hate Lisa so much that they feel the need to make videos of it?

But yeah, things like that comes off feeling as a deliberate attempt at painting out Bart as a victim (no matter what and Lisa as the big bad aggressor who keep trampling on him (and even without seeing that video, I'm guessing it is the usual stuff along the lines of how she supposedly works against and restricts him and his rights and can't allow him to be happy and always have to find ways to get at him: Those seem to be the usual complaints and I'm not surprised if that's the case here as well). But obviously, her gender is as always the main factor and it circles this back to the misogyny thing (and makes me more certain that she would be more accepted if she was a boy).

(Also I saw the recommendations feed of that video you linked to and saw this one (title say something about her being a potential psychopath or something). What the hell is up with these Spanish-speaking fans and their insane rage on Lisa?).

 

[MaryWrite]

You know the funny irony in all of this? Bart if he saw this stuff people were saying about Lisa, he would laugh at some of the small petty stuff because you know it's just his thing to laugh about Lisa. But when he sees the truly heinous stuff people say about Lisa, making her out to be demented monster & psycho, he would get instantly pissed. He would find a way to ruin their asses somehow for talking shit about his little sister.

No amount of teasing, inconvenient irritattion or character basterdization will ruin the love Bart has for his sister and vice versa.

 

[I Love Lisa]

You know the funny irony in all of this? Bart if he saw this stuff people were saying about Lisa, he would laugh at some of the small petty stuff because you know it's just his thing to laugh about Lisa. But when he sees the truly heinous stuff people say about Lisa, making her out to be demented monster & psycho, he would get instantly pissed. He would find a way to ruin their asses somehow for talking shit about his little sister.

No amount of teasing, inconvenient irritattion or character basterdization will ruin the love Bart has for his sister and vice versa.
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A million times this! Much as he hates to admit Bart loves Lisa and he sticks up for her all the time (even if he also teases her all the time as well ) to hate on Lisa because of her relationship with Bart is to actively ignore and misintepret a huge part of Bart himself and his role on the show.

(Bart to all the toxic Lisa haters out there)

Wait, Lisa's bi?

It was hinted at in Holidays of Future Passed and Mr. Lisa's Opus, but personally it feels a bit tacked-on and insincere to me so I don't really buy into it (and it only coming up in hypothetical future stuff means it doesn't really affect anything). Plus I prefer not to speculate on an 8 year old's sexuality anyway.

 

[MaryWrite]

A million times this! Much as he hates to admit Bart loves Lisa and he sticks up for her all the time (even if he also teases her all the time as well ) to hate on Lisa because of her relationship with Bart is to actively ignore and misintepret a huge part of Bart himself and his role on the show.

(Bart to all the toxic Lisa haters out there)

Not to mention that we just watched a what-if scenario about Lisa getting revenge and killing Bob for murdering Bart. Yeah sure, she killed innocent people to accomplish it, but still.

 

[I Love Lisa]

Not to mention that we just watched a what-if scenario about Lisa getting revenge and killing Bob for murdering Bart. Yeah sure, she killed innocent people to accomplish it, but still.

Not seen that one to be fair (it hasn't aired in the UK yet), but that's a very good point!

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

Lisa is my favorite character in the series, and for me there's no argument the only reason she's increasingly more and more hated on the Internet is plain misogyny. She's an intelligent, vegetarian, enviromentalist, feminist and bisexual eight-year-old girl who is generally used in the most famous animated sitcom in history as the voice of reason. Of course the worst corners of the internet hate her! That's exactly the reason why she's still the best.

Another issue is trying to separate the characters of a 35-season animated sitcom into good or bad people. Truth is... I don't think any main character in a good sitcom with more than two episodes can ever be classified as a good person. Characters have to be flawed, be liars, be even selfish and sometimes (why not) mean when needed to give rise to plots and gags. The key to a good show is do this in a sincere and fun way, while you get in love with the characters and the world. Sometimes I think fandoms try to summarize the characters they love in a definition or a concept, instead of seeing them as tools to tell good stories. What's the meaning of something like "Batman doesn't kill"? I've read thousands of Batman comics in my life and I've seen all of his live-action movies... in most of them he kills people all the time either intentionally, accidentally or carelessly! You can say "I don't like when Batman is written as a carelessly killer" and that's fine, of course, but that doesn't mean that you can't write a good and competent story about Batman killing people. There's dozens of it, actually.

What does seem stupid to me from a writer point-of-view and what I think really hurts a long-running character like any of the ones in 'The Simpsons' is when a character is taken to a extreme but you don't dare to do anything either funny or even interesting with it. Like, for example, I hated the subplot in McMansion & Wife, but not because "Lisa would never be a cyberbully, Lisa would never be into doxxing". She could, and that would be interesting and funny if you know how to write her! What we have instead is a couple of scenes of Lisa being awfully mean with Nelson in a cruel way and then an out-of-camera settling. Even Hubert says to us "I've learned everything there is to learn about Lisa. It made me realize if someone doesn't help her family, and soon, she's gonna go off the rails in a very bad way". Ooooh, so that's what this subplot was about? That's great, that's interesting! Can you elaborate? Oh, ok, you're finished, nevermind.

The important distinction I think is that Lisa's flaws in the classic series aren't moral flaws like they are with Homer or Bart. Over and over again it is demonstrated she has severe self-image and self-esteem problems that form the drive of much of her stories, but while she does lose herself in a few (namely Lisa's Rival), those moments are explicitly not who she normally is. Villainizing her to such a degree isn't just wrong, it's actively going against the meaning of the text.

Why do many of these Spanish fans hate Lisa so much that they feel the need to make videos of it?

But yeah, things like that comes off feeling as a deliberate attempt at painting out Bart as a victim (no matter what and Lisa as the big bad aggressor who keep trampling on him (and even without seeing that video, I'm guessing it is the usual stuff along the lines of how she supposedly works against and restricts him and his rights and can't allow him to be happy and always have to find ways to get at him: Those seem to be the usual complaints and I'm not surprised if that's the case here as well). But obviously, her gender is as always the main factor and it circles this back to the misogyny thing (and makes me more certain that she would be more accepted if she was a boy).

(Also I saw the recommendations feed of that video you linked to and saw this one (title say something about her being a potential psychopath or something). What the hell is up with these Spanish-speaking fans and their insane rage on Lisa?).

Oh trust me, just look at the comments, and you'll see first-hand just how incensed this gets:


The blatant white-knighting I think very much exposes why My Sister, My Sitter gets such a strong reaction. Bart is pretty much at his absolute worst in that story (at least insofar as Classic is concerned), and this breaks the cognitive dissonance that allows him to be read as "innocent". So the argument shifts instead to him being out-of-character....while conspicuously not using that defense for the many times Lisa has been written poorly post-classic. It's very revealing in its hypocrisy.

It was hinted at in Holidays of Future Passed and Mr. Lisa's Opus, but personally it feels a bit tacked-on and insincere to me so I don't really buy into it (and it only coming up in hypothetical future stuff means it doesn't really affect anything). Plus I prefer not to speculate on an 8 year old's sexuality anyway.

Lisa's bisexuality is pretty overt queerbaiting. Jean openly teased the idea of her having a female love interest in the then-upcoming Mr. Lisa's Opus, only for it to amount to less than a minute of screentime with a girl that she had no actual explicit relationship with. Pretty overtly it's only done as a combination of stereotypes and media attention, and that it hasn't been explored once despite nearly every future story in the last ten years being about her (Barthood being the sole real exception) shows just how little it's actually valued.

 

[Jackomon]

It was hinted at in Holidays of Future Passed and Mr. Lisa's Opus, but personally it feels a bit tacked-on and insincere to me so I don't really buy into it (and it only coming up in hypothetical future stuff means it doesn't really affect anything). Plus I prefer not to speculate on an 8 year old's sexuality anyway.

Lisa's bisexuality is pretty overt queerbaiting. Jean openly teased the idea of her having a female love interest in the then-upcoming Mr. Lisa's Opus, only for it to amount to less than a minute of screentime with a girl that she had no actual explicit relationship with. Pretty overtly it's only done as a combination of stereotypes and media attention, and that it hasn't been explored once despite nearly every future story in the last ten years being about her (Barthood being the sole real exception) shows just how little it's actually valued.

Yeah, while I would have Lisa been bi as a headcanon and in my fics, I wouldn't say she is bi in the show at all (outside of jokes, and the two episodes mentioned are basically non-canon anyway). There is the argument that she is 8, but the counter-argument when it comes to that is that there are LGBTQ+ kid characters in other media such as Craig of the Creek & The Owl House.

Same with Bart honestly, as those come of as jokes if anything, and Jean openly teasing is 100% queerbaiting, which in itself is a controversial topic in general if the RWBY fandom & Voltron: Legendary Defender controversy is any indication.

Given the shows track record with LGBTQ+ topics, it comes off as unnecessary, and I'd say just having a new recurring character that is LGBTQ+ would work better (if they can do it right, and I do believe they did it right with Evelyn). It might of been fine with Patty & Waylon, but that is because there were hints prior their coming out episodes, but with the other characters, I just can't see how it works. I do have my LGBTQ+ headcanons, such as Ruth Powers & Mindy Simmons, but, I can't see how it works in the canon series itself as both characters aren't hinted at been LGBTQ+ (well, Mindy isn't, Ruth Powers I think it more depends on how you read her actions in Marge on the Lam and her Interactions with Marge).

This does remind me of a video Lily Simpson did a while back that Brad had shared (that I will link below), and another video I saw around the same time (I don't remember if it was shared on this site or if I just happened to find it):

(Only goes up to Season 31, which at the time of the video's publishing was the most recent season)

I will say that the topic of LGBTQ+ in animated media is something I do feel like researching more in the future, which includes The Simpsons, but, compared to other shows, I don't think Simpsons does LGBTQ+ topics well at all (at least it isn't as bad as Family Guy).

 

[Quilloughby]

Oh, I for sure would never say that Lisa's bisexuality has been correctly used by the show. But being that it has been mentioned in at least three of the last six flashforwards of the show (the two you both said and and also 'Mother and Child Reunion' in which Lisa seems happy at the prospect of being married to a woman in the future) I would say is more that a headcanon and at least an established running gag.

Either way, I don't mind it enough to debate it much more if you all don't see that way. As you all said, the writers had never put proper care in the subject, so I'm not going to defend any half-assed reference.

 

[CousinMerl]

You know the funny irony in all of this? Bart if he saw this stuff people were saying about Lisa, he would laugh at some of the small petty stuff because you know it's just his thing to laugh about Lisa. But when he sees the truly heinous stuff people say about Lisa, making her out to be demented monster & psycho, he would get instantly pissed. He would find a way to ruin their asses somehow for talking shit about his little sister.

No amount of teasing, inconvenient irritattion or character basterdization will ruin the love Bart has for his sister and vice versa.

Hear hear! Those haters and trolls can rant on all the want, but at the end of the day, Bart & Lisa truly do love each other at the end of the day and no matter what disagreement or fight, it still boils down to their sibling bond, as your pic examples show.

As for the former thing, I think that would be Bart's appropriate responses. Now I really would like to see an episode like that where Lisa get haters who troll her (maybe due to something progressive or something she said or did online?) and Bart decides to do something about it, really rolling up his sleeves for the sake of his sister (I mean, he did defend her in 'Bart The General', as pictured in the image posted by @I Love Lisa, so could be interesting to see that in a more modern context). Could be a good one.

The important distinction I think is that Lisa's flaws in the classic series aren't moral flaws like they are with Homer or Bart. Over and over again it is demonstrated she has severe self-image and self-esteem problems that form the drive of much of her stories, but while she does lose herself in a few (namely Lisa's Rival), those moments are explicitly not who she normally is. Villainizing her to such a degree isn't just wrong, it's actively going against the meaning of the text.


Oh trust me, just look at the comments, and you'll see first-hand just how incensed this gets:

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Oh my, that's just some bonafide deluded fanboy Pro-bart, Anti-Lisa bullplop! How can they be so mental I have no idea

The blatant white-knighting I think very much exposes why My Sister, My Sitter gets such a strong reaction. Bart is pretty much at his absolute worst in that story (at least insofar as Classic is concerned), and this breaks the cognitive dissonance that allows him to be read as "innocent". So the argument shifts instead to him being out-of-character....while conspicuously not using that defense for the many times Lisahas been written poorly post-classic. It's very revealing in its hypocrisy.

You know, I really do like the sound oft hat theory on why My Sitter has gotten such a strong negative reaction in later years. It is true that Bart is unevocably the antagonist of the episode and his behavior was certainly at one of its worst points, but it do break that kind of deluded view the vocal no-holds-barred defenders of Bart and clearly makes him the bad guy, which has them scrambling to try justify it by complaining "Bart's so OOC!" (like you're saying) highlighting that sheer favoritism of Bart as well as the hypocrisy for them not doing the same for Lisa, which absolutely stands out as an elephant in the room, of sorts.

Like George Lucas once said: It's like poetry, it rhymes.

 

[Sandboy]

I don't think I'm equipped for this though. But I definitely believe that the cultural and social context is where the hate towards Lisa comes from. Not to completely encompass the entire fandom, but, there is something interesting in the way that many of the examples that are cited around the Latin American fandom (and I know better than anyone this part of the pond because, well... I'm from here) , seem to be built around the idea of a male character losing/sacrificing something (Separate Vocations being the prime example of this). I don't know how controversial this is but; the feeling that the more Lisa appears "detached" from the "traditional", the more the public seems to feel disdain towards her. Idk, that's a weird way to frame it but: how many people aren't still arguing that Vegetarian ruined her character forever? How many people have not denied the feminist side of her since Malibu Stacy (and look, I've seen people here treat Lisa's feminism as an invention of the modern era)?

I don't know, the other side is that she is a product of her time. You already know. The one where the male character was the "fun" and crazy character, while the female character was more of a voice of reason, calm and more emotional and sensitive (something that actually comes out like a sore thumb when Marge is, effectively, the least family popular). Let's put it this way: how many of Marge's most memorable moments are those that characterize her most "colorfully"? Like we're taking the reaction of people who still find her unpleasant in Scenes from the Class Struggle, while her husband could easily blow up the city (which he did) and yet he'd look normal because he's "lol funny ".

This covers a psychological and social analysis, but Beauvoir covered in The Second Sex (I took on the task of researching) that a woman was always going to be defined by her actions more than anything else. And well... How many times have people seen Separate Vocations and Dial N for Nerder and finished cherry-picking Lisa's characterization and taken it as gospel for the series? Surely more than you think. Oh and I need to get this out of my mind: yes, they exist. There are people who blame Lisa for wanting to kill Marge and Homer for everything that happened in Pixelated and Afraid. And it should be noted that these are the people who then argue that modern Lisa no longer behaves like an 8-year-old girl.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

The use of Separate Vocations sticks out because it seems to work on this fundamental misconception that Bart was actually doing good in his new role as hall monitor and that Lisa ruined that....when the episode actually makes it extremely clear that is not the case at all. Bart only gets into law enforcement after experiencing the thrill of a high-speed chase - he's only doing it because he thinks it'd be fun, and literally every scene of him in the role shows him enforcing it as a totalitarian, even when it makes other people miserable. Lisa even goes so far to call him a fascist. The episode if anything goes against the narrative of Bart being "actually good" completely, because it shows what'd really happen were Bart to be placed in a position where he's doing social good; He would just use the position for his own entertainment with zero interest for what's morally right. This is in large part why he makes the sacrifice for Lisa in the first place - she has far more to lose by throwing her future away than he does.

The reason I highlight this is because it's quite illuminating in how Bart has been warped by the discussion surrounding Lisa. The general narrative which appears to have emerged is "Bart gets nothing, Lisa gets everything", but practically never does the question ever get raised if Bart actually deserves that "everything", it's just assumed he does on the basis that he doesn't. Rather than seeing the ending of Itchy & Scratchy: The Movie and understanding it was meant as a joke, people seemed to seriously think that becoming Chief Justice was meant as a serious statement on Bart's character. Rather than seeing the moments where the bad kid redeems himself, people seemed to assume that meant he was actually good, when he never would've had to redeem himself to begin with if he was good. And rather than viewing Lisa's struggles through the lens of her actual character, they position her as the other - the "enemy" who "ruined" Bart (and often the other boys) lives just to be the best.

Says a lot, doesn't it?

 

[B-Boy]

There are people who blame Lisa for wanting to kill Marge and Homer for everything that happened in Pixelated and Afraid.

Indeed. Similar charges were laid against Lisa for her response to Bart's prank in Flanders' Ladder and it was equally ridiculous. Bart humiliated her - publicly no less - and her revenge was comparatively soft. The moment she discovered her actions were actively harming Bart, she was distraught and put a stop to it. Lisa was condemned, Bart was not. There has always been a double standard here rooted in gender discrimination and I've always hated it.

 

[CousinMerl]

I don't think I'm equipped for this though. But I definitely believe that the cultural and social context is where the hate towards Lisa comes from. Not to completely encompass the entire fandom, but, there is something interesting in the way that many of the examples that are cited around the Latin American fandom (and I know better than anyone this part of the pond because, well... I'm from here) , seem to be built around the idea of a male character losing/sacrificing something (Separate Vocations being the prime example of this).

That cultural and/or social aspect do make perfect sense in terms of why fans from a certain geographic location would hate a certain character, even though it's obviously not all fans from a certain country or culture who apply to that, yeah.

And that you pont out to how the Latin American fandom easily latch onto that idea of a male character doing a sacrifice or losing something is interesting and make sense. I also think it can also be likened to the idea that misogynistic viewers have about how supposedly, male characters being, well, emasculated & looking weak/bad so a female character can look better/superior.

I don't know how controversial this is but; the feeling that the more Lisa appears "detached" from the "traditional", the more the public seems to feel disdain towards her. Idk, that's a weird way to frame it but: how many people aren't still arguing that Vegetarian ruined her character forever? How many people have not denied the feminist side of her since Malibu Stacy (and look, I've seen people here treat Lisa's feminism as an invention of the modern era)?

I don't think that notion feel so controversial, but more as a subjective fact (of sorts, I guess?). Lisa is absolutely detached from the traditional norms, being very progressive (as I've mentioned several times) and showing off her intelligence and smarts, academic skills and wanting to be the best, etc., which really seem to threaten a lot of (male) viewers. THere's also been the feminism, yeah, which aggravate a ton of opinionated online people (and yes, I have seen Lisa referred to as a "feminist b***h"), but interestingly enough I've seen few complaints of 'Lisa Vs. Maluby Stacy', for some reasons (even though it was the orgin of Lisa's outspoken feminist views).

Speaking of 'Lisa The Vegetarian', it indeed seem like one of those episode that has been more retroactively painted out as having ruined her (seen a lot of folks in more or less recent years who argue that Lisa's downfall started there), but additionally, back some ten or more years ago, there were very much fewer fans who complained aobut Lisa in that episode (so like 'My Sister My Sitter it also falls into that camp of episodes that has had more people turn against it due to one or more factors according to part of the fandom)

I don't know, the other side is that she is a product of her time. You already know. The one where the male character was the "fun" and crazy character, while the female character was more of a voice of reason, calm and more emotional and sensitive (something that actually comes out like a sore thumb when Marge is, effectively, the least family popular). Let's put it this way: how many of Marge's most memorable moments are those that characterize her most "colorfully"? Like we're taking the reaction of people who still find her unpleasant in Scenes from the Class Struggle, while her husband could easily blow up the city (which he did) and yet he'd look normal because he's "lol funny ".

I think that also seem to link together with the rest of the Anti-Lisa sentiment. As I've argued, it really do seem like some are really bothered by how the female characters are the voice of reason (including being more emotional and sensitive) and the male characters are the goofy silly ones, which brings me to assume that a large portion of viewers just want the "LOL crazy goofy funny yellow family" show and someone like Lisa, whom is more intellectual and the "nerdy boring character", actively goes against that.

And Marge do come off as the least favorite character & that I am absolutely, positively sure is due to her being the "boring voice of reason" with less memorable, colorful & funny moments than the others in the family & how she is the de-facto "killjoy" (which is a term I've certainly also seen applied to Lisa), to the point you mentioned about people not liking her and/or seeing her as unsympathic even in episodes where she is the sympathetic one ('Scenes From A Class Struggle' is a good example of that) & the same goes for Lisa in her sympathetic stories, with those haters twisting the truth, ending up with Marge & Lisa seen as the "boring and generally unfunny ones" who are essentially thorns in Homer & Bart's sides and "prevents" them for some shenanigans, or at least tries to stop them).

This covers a psychological and social analysis, but Beauvoir covered in The Second Sex (I took on the task of researching) that a woman was always going to be defined by her actions more than anything else. And well... How many times have people seen Separate Vocations and Dial N for Nerder and finished cherry-picking Lisa's characterization and taken it as gospel for the series? Surely more than you think. Oh and I need to get this out of my mind: yes, they exist. There are people who blame Lisa for wanting to kill Marge and Homer for everything that happened in Pixelated and Afraid. And it should be noted that these are the people who then argue that modern Lisa no longer behaves like an 8-year-old girl.

I think that quote you took from 'The Second Sex' makes too much sense, unfortunately: Women (and female characters) will be defined by their actions first and foremost and that reflects onto 'The Simpsons' in the cases of both Lisa & Marge (but especially Lisa!), with a lot of hateful opinionated viewers letting their "Lisa ruins everything" (which is a common line I've seen) mindset twist Lisa to the point of demonizing her for even small and non-existing offenses and retroactively letting those define her (so you're right).

And it still continues to this day with a lot of pure nonsense, such as what you said of them blaming Lisa for Homer & Marge's car accident which led to them stranded in the woods in 'Pixelated And Afraid', when that was only Homer's fault for being careless on an icy road (I mean, if I suggest that someone should go to a certain place for their own good and then are in a car crash, it isn't my fault at all. And those who do think it is my fault, then those people are more or less deluded and possibly psychotic-minded).

It not only show the inherent and institutionalized misogyny, but also reveal these kind of pathetic fans as small and petty who cant look past a few scenes and incidents with someone like Lisa coming off as less than perfect and letting that ruin the character in their mind (and Lisa still do behave like an 8-year old, but as expected, the Lisa detractors latch onto those moments of her being a miniature adult).

 

[Spartan Girl]

I don’t mind Marge’s quirky moments, even if they can come off as annoying sometimes. And I don’t mind her being the boring voice of reason like she used to be in the Classic Era.

What I do mind is her Flanderization into a petty, whiny, self-righteous woman who overreacts at every perceived slight. Episodes like Friends and Family, Love Is A Many Splintered Thing, What Animated Women Want, Werking Mom, Simprovised**, Mother and Child Reunion, and various others had her act terribly and somehow at the end, the show instead of calling her out on it acted like she was entitled to the Grand Gesture Apology from Homer, Lisa, or whoever was in her warpath at the end. Even in Mothers and Other Strangers, she acted like Mother’s Day was about her and her alone, and that Homer wanting closure about his mother was somehow neglecting her, even though she’d gotten a nice present from him AND reservations at a nice restaurant.

**Yeah Bart was unappreciative over her helping with the treehouse, but that was no reason for her to take it out on Homer and rattle his newfound confidence for improvising. And even though she realized what she did, she made no effort to fix it. Once the commercial break ended, it was still all about Bart needing to make amends.

Say what you want about Family Guy, but it’s at least stopped pretending to hide that Lois can be just as terrible a person as Peter.