When does the Al Jean era turn awful & predictable?

[Quilloughby]

I think that each season has examples like that as well. There's always at least a few episodes I really like in any given year (usually the ones starring a certain character ) and I just like watching The Simpsons enough that it's rare for me to truly dislike even the poorer episodes, so to my mind there isn't a spell of the show that's without any merit. There are ups and down of course, but never enough for me to call the show "awful" so I guess the nearest option on the poll for me would be "Jean era was never bad" even if my feelings are a bit more nuancemd than that.

Oh, I usually find enjoyment in any era of the show too. If not, I wouldn't had watched 35 seasons of it. Actually, there has to be like twenty episodes or so I truly hate-hate to watch. Come on, most of the time it's just a stupid, boring and harmless cartoon with two or three good jokes by episode.

I always think that Simpsons fans that say that most of the Simpsons seasons are some of the worst and vilest pieces of media they have watched have kind of the same problem that a lot of Star Wars fans and they only have to let it go.

 

[Dr. Nihilistic]

Another thing to note is the difficulties the show was facing back when Oakley/Weinstein were taking showrunner positions in season 7. Even back then, they were saying they were struggling for new ideas. Now I think season 7 is the best season of the show, but it seemed to be very difficult on the crew to come up with new ideas and implement them properly. I think that can be seen in a few season 8 episodes that were a bit uninspired, and that trend continued into the Scully and Jean eras. If they were struggling with new ideas in season 7, I imagine it would be a nightmare to come up with new ideas in season 17.
I think the show was bound to decline no matter who was showrunner, the crew worked to the bone during s7 and 8. The Futurama/King of the Hill exodus did not help either. No matter who ran season 16/17, I doubt they would be much better no matter who was showrunner, whether it be Jean, Jon Vitti, Swartzwelder, Mirken, Meyer, etc, the show had exhausted so many ideas that there was bound to be a drain. I think it is pretty impressive that we can point to a decent amount of good episodes in 9-16 considering the factors that were working against the show.

The Simpsons is the kind of show that constantly needs new energy at the top and people willing to push it into different directions. Oakley & Weinstein were going to leave the show if they didn't end up showrunners. Their goal was to take what worked in season three and combine it with their own sensibilities, because they felt like the show had stopped being grounded. The workload was too much for them in season eight and they didn't want to repeat themselves, so they left as soon as they had the chance.

As strange as the Scully era was, I understand why he was given the job. He was one of the senior writers at that point and guys like George Meyer and John Swartzwelder were never going to do it. Somebody had to step up. I think that if Scully only did two seasons like the other showrunners before him, his era wouldn't get as much hate. But he was afraid the show was ending soon and he didn't want someone else to be in charge when that happened, so he stayed.

It's also important to note that when Scully took over, he got it to a point where the writers weren't working the same hours as before. It became more of a 9-to-5 instead of the 80-100 hours a week it used to be, but he even admitted the work caught up to him after season nine. I'm assuming when Jean took over, the job became even more streamlined which is why he was showrunner for twenty years.

The fact that people saw immediate change when Jean took over, when Selman started producing episodes, when the co-runners became a thing.......it lets me know that The Simpsons can still reinvent itself if it's allowed to. It's just like in WWE how people noticed changes when Vince McMahon stepped down and Triple H took over creative responsibilities. You can't have the same people in charge for twenty years and expect any changes.

 

[I Love Lisa]

I always think that Simpsons fans that say that most of the Simpsons seasons are some of the worst and vilest pieces of media they have watched have kind of the same problem that a lot of Star Wars fans and they only have to let it go.

One hundred percent this! I don't want to come across as patronising (and I can't really comment on the Star Wars comparison since I'm only a passive observer of that series at best), but I always have a hard time believing it whenever someone claims to have watched every episode of The Simpsons and hated the vast majority of it. Hate's a very strong word (stronger than a lot of people seem to realise) and I just struggle to buy that someone would spend literally hundreds of hours sitting through something they genuinely loathe. There has to be something you enjoy or you'd just stop watching right? I certainly would.

 

[Kangdos]

One hundred percent this! I don't want to come across as patronising (and I can't really comment on the Star Wars comparison since I'm only a passive observer of that series at best), but I always have a hard time believing it whenever someone claims to have watched every episode of The Simpsons and hated the vast majority of it. Hate's a very strong word (stronger than a lot of people seem to realise) and I just struggle to buy that someone would spend literally hundreds of hours sitting through something they genuinely loathe. There has to be something you enjoy or you'd just stop watching right? I certainly would.

Believe it.

 

[I Love Lisa]

Believe it.

Oh I know you really love post-classic Simpsons, you big softy you.

 

[stryke]

I think state of mind plays a big part. If you go in expecting something to suck, then it's going to have to work significantly harder just to even scrape by as okay. Every minor flaw will grate and shout for you to pick it apart when maybe it's really not that big a deal.

Once that state has been reached it's very hard to get back out of it. I know of which I speak as I'm there now with Futurama, and believe me it sucks. Even though I'm self aware of the problem, and I know that it's a one off episodic show so any one episode has the potential for brilliance, I still gave up halfway through the last reboot series cause it just kept on letting me down in ways that were absolutely infuriating.

 

[Szyslak100]

I'll take the concept from @ThrashtheTrash's post. The Jean era is a downwrad spiral.

Seasons 13-16 were pretty good. I dare say The Simpsons recovered part of its enchantment after two bad seasons. Despite some bad troops, a handful of horrendous episodes, and even though this era was a step down in comedy aspects, I can see more consistency, some neat ideas, and way better and more stable characterizations. I'll take another concept from above and say these seasons were "traditional". You can make a solid argument that any of these seasons was the best since season 9.

Then season 17 was the first downgrade. The plots become repetitive and predictable, guest stars got more prominence, and there was more filling episodes from there than in the first four years of the show. Season 17 was largely discussed in this forum and I think it's more or less in the same tier as the next four season (maybe 20 stands out as the best, but it's not comparable with 13-16). Yet there were more decent episodes than awful ones, and a a few outstanding episodes per season.

But season 22 was another break point. The Al Jean's NABF season was awful. Call it a coincide or a consequence, but this was the first season of Matt Selman as a co-runner. The most remarkable episode was The Great Simpsina, a very low episode to be the best of a season, and many episodes fail in every level, like Love Is a Many Strangled Thing. From that point until season 30, there were more failures than successes from Jean, with two or three atrocious episodes per season and maybe one every two year to truly stand out. These years are plenty of mean-spiritism, flanderizarion, inconsistent characterizations, cartoonish moments, and shallow and confusing plots...

And yet it was better than what was yet to come. Jean's season 31 and onwards are unwatchable except for The Way of the Dog and some barely decent episodes. These episodes don't even have coherence. Plots are a mess, there's lack of ambition, lack of cohesion, lack of ideas. There are lot of low-quality reharsh, ineffective callbacks to classic episodes, lots of cringeworthy moments, predictable jokes, and forced dialogues. A current Al Jean's episode is a compilation of unfunny jokes sticked out together in incoherent ways. It's terrible to the point I haven't watched his episodes from season 34 – and I have watched his episodes from season 35 without knowing he was the showrunner and needed one minute to be sure it was him because it just looks unprofessional and unambitious. To answer the poll, this is the point I'd say it turned awful, and maybe season 17 was when it turned predictable.

 

[Kangdos]

Oh I know you really love post-classic Simpsons, you big softy you.

I all sincerity, I realize that obviously I do get some kind of stimulation from zombie Simpsons or else I'd, as you said, just have stopped watching.

However I think in my case what drives me to stay by the shows side is some kind of morbid faschination as opposed to face-value enjoyment. Like you know how some people just sit around all day and read and listen to people spout political oppinions that are the complete polar opposite of their own? It pisses them off, it makes them sick to their stomach, but they just don't want to stop doing it. Lefties who live for reading obsessively about Donald Trump's every move and every utterance, rightwingers who does nothinhg but watch videos of "sjw's being cringe", ect.

I have a saying, a saying that I've used to explain a lot of what I spend my time on, and it is "Not everyone whose interested in Hitler likes Hitler". And that about covers it. All of those historians who write about Hitler, all of those regular people who watches documentaries on Hitler (of whom many might be inclined to change the channel if the documentary is about just about any other historical figure except maybe the historical Jesus or Jack the Ripper. Really, I'd say that in continued interest among even total history noobs those three are the true holy trinity of viewership), how many are actually nazis that nod their head in agreement when reading his quotes? Not many, not in terms of percentage at least.

And yeah, that's zombie Simpsons to me. It's an interested I have, but I consider it a monstrosity that should never have been in the first place. But now that it's here I watch it in horror (well moreso in annoyance and boredom) and then I come here and complain about it. It's maybe not the best way to spend my time, but it's the way I somehow feel inclined to. It is the life I've chosed.

 

[B-Boy]

zombie Simpsons

This was an accurate descriptor once, but it isn't anymore. The current show is something else entirely.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

This was an accurate descriptor once, but is isn't anymore. The current show is something else entirely.

I'd describe it as post-canon Simpsons. We are past the point of acting like new episodes in any way contribute to the accepted canonical text of the series (S1-8/9, depending on who you ask), so now they exist entirely to experiment with creative form. The characters are far more moldable archetypes than they are anything with the idea of continuity.

 

[Quilloughby]

I'll take the concept from @ThrashtheTrash's post. The Jean era is a downwrad spiral.

Seasons 13-16 were pretty good. I dare say The Simpsons recovered part of its enchantment after two bad seasons. Despite some bad troops, a handful of horrendous episodes, and even though this era was a step down in comedy aspects, I can see more consistency, some neat ideas, and way better and more stable characterizations. I'll take another concept from above and say these seasons were "traditional". You can make a solid argument that any of these seasons was the best since season 9.

Then season 17 was the first downgrade. The plots become repetitive and predictable, guest stars got more prominence, and there was more filling episodes from there than in the first four years of the show. Season 17 was largely discussed in this forum and I think it's more or less in the same tier as the next four season (maybe 20 stands out as the best, but it's not comparable with 13-16). Yet there were more decent episodes than awful ones, and a a few outstanding episodes per season.

But season 22 was another break point. The Al Jean's NABF season was awful. Call it a coincide or a consequence, but this was the first season of Matt Selman as a co-runner. The most remarkable episode was The Great Simpsina, a very low episode to be the best of a season, and many episodes fail in every level, like Love Is a Many Strangled Thing. From that point until season 30, there were more failures than successes from Jean, with two or three atrocious episodes per season and maybe one every two year to truly stand out. These years are plenty of mean-spiritism, flanderizarion, inconsistent characterizations, cartoonish moments, and shallow and confusing plots...

And yet it was better than what was yet to come. Jean's season 31 and onwards are unwatchable except for The Way of the Dog and some barely decent episodes. These episodes don't even have coherence. Plots are a mess, there's lack of ambition, lack of cohesion, lack of ideas. There are lot of low-quality reharsh, ineffective callbacks to classic episodes, lots of cringeworthy moments, predictable jokes, and forced dialogues. A current Al Jean's episode is a compilation of unfunny jokes sticked out together in incoherent ways. It's terrible to the point I haven't watched his episodes from season 34 – and I have watched his episodes from season 35 without knowing he was the showrunner and needed one minute to be sure it was him because it just looks unprofessional and unambitious. To answer the poll, this is the point I'd say it turned awful, and maybe season 17 was when it turned predictable.

I kind of agree with... all of this. Jean episodes have never been as bad as they are right now. I think I have not graded a Jean one with more than a 2.5/5 since Marge the Meanie almost two years ago, and I'm generous with grades.

Nevertheless, I think the actual problem with all that tepid Jean seasons was... the sum of it. So many mediocre episodes. Now that its idiosyncrasies are confined in a couple of episodes per season, it's easier to overlook them for the inexperienced eye. I have a lot of friends that have watched seasons 33-35 by my recommendation and almost all of them liked them or even LOVED them... even the Jean ones, even though they think that the show had been previously bad for many, many years.

 

[Wile E. the Brain]

I just woke up and comparing Jean-era Simpsons with Hitler and nazis wasn't the thing I expected to see first in this morning.

 

[CousinMerl]

To answer the poll, this is the point I'd say it turned awful, and maybe season 17 was when it turned predictable.

I do think that @Szyslak100 sums it up really well, and the entirety of that post (not qquoted) lays it out nicely.

Seasons 13 through 16 may be a bit rocky at times, but it was Jean post-classic era at his best (peak was 14 and 15, if you ask me), but yep, season 17 started the gradual downgrade and with the advent of the HD era, the Jean seasons/episodes have been kind of like a stairwell with differently sized steps, some smaller and some bigger, as the show hits various points of severe declines, then have some seasons not be as bad in comparison, and then "hitting back" in the form of a lot of really dire and uninspiredly bad and/or just tired stale material. Hell, I think the fact that a ton of Jean's modern episodes tend to be so lackluster, tired and devoid of true energy, creativity and/or inspiration may in fact, in a way, be worse than the outright horrible stuff we get. There's just too much dullness (just look at the frustrating season 32).

If we were to do it like Szyslak100 tend to do and separate the post-classic, post-Scully episodes into strictly Jean seasons and Selman seasons, things would look quite different (and the Selman ones would range from OK to solid or great) but discounting the Selman/Omine/etc. ones, the Jean stup has been in a steep decline for quite a while. I mean, what else proof do we need that Jean should retire and let the others handle things for now. It is not natural for any show to have had the same showrunner for two decades.

 

[Quilloughby]

I'd describe it as post-canon Simpsons. We are past the point of acting like new episodes in any way contribute to the accepted canonical text of the series (S1-8/9, depending on who you ask), so now they exist entirely to experiment with creative form. The characters are far more moldable archetypes than they are anything with the idea of continuity.

About this... it depends, of course, but I have to say that most people in the real world know that the show eventually started to suck but they don't have a clear breaking point. At least in my circles, I have not known many people that would consider something like... I don't know, Take My Wife, Sleaze as a bad episode of a bad season. Most people would tell you that the worst ones are "when the animation gets cleaner" and that's it. So I don't think it's true at all that something like Trilogy of Error isn't canonical text in the popular culture. It is.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

About this... it depends, of course, but I have to say that most people in the real world know that the show eventually started to suck but they don't have a clear breaking point. At least in my circles, I have not known many people that would consider something like... I don't know, "Take My Wife, Sleaze" as a bad episode of a bad season. Most people would tell you that the worst ones are "when the animation gets cleaner" and that's it. So I don't think it's true at all that something like "Trilogy of Error" isn't canonical text in the popular culture. It is.

Is it? I'll admit that the ability to discern exactly what measures cultural discourse can be tricky, but I feel like in the modern internet age, the idea of of S8 as the "cut-off" point (with some arguing for S9) has become more and more the known and accepted idea, at least among people familiar with the series beyond just the very basics.

 

[B-Boy]

Is it? I'll admit that the ability to discern exactly what measures cultural discourse can be tricky, but I feel like in the modern internet age, the idea of of S8 as the "cut-off" point (with some arguing for S9) has become more and more the known and accepted idea, at least among people familiar with the series beyond just the very basics.

I would say the general consensus is actually 'the first 10 seasons'. More ardent viewers are likelier to qualify season 8 or 9 as the cut-off point. I think a very small number of episodes after season 10 could also be included (Behind the Laughter and Trilogy of Error, for example).

 

[Quilloughby]

If I had not watched the show at all by this point and I wanted to get in it, I would definetly watch the nine first seasons and that's it. So the "canon" can change with new generations.

But at least here in Spain the show fully reruned endlessly for twenty years from 1998 to 2018 every day in one of the main channels. I would say that most Spanish people in the 20s and 30s have watched the likes of 200 to 300 Simpsons episodes, and not always the 200 to 300 first ones. It's hard to debate the "popular canonicity" of something like The Simpsons globally.

 

[CousinMerl]

I would say the general consensus is actually 'the first 10 seasons'. More ardent viewers are likelier to qualify season 8 or 9 as the cut-off point. I think a very small number of episodes after season 10 could also be included (Behind the Laughter and Trilogy of Error, for example).

Season 10 often tends to be counted as part of the golden age and thusly the "cut-off" point by a lot of fans, increasingly so these days (I suppose in partially due to how many grew up watching it, but also that it does have more good episodes than the following Scully ones, even though I do prefer 12 to 10, due to more interesting episodes and a lot more variety, but that is something for another thread).

 

[Wile E. the Brain]

I'm not comfortable with the idea of calling the seasons that came after the golden age "post-canon Simpsons". You can argue it morphed into a completely different show now - I wholeheartedly agree with this - but this is a remark I find kinda derogatory, makes me think of all those people going like "The Last Jedi isn't canon in the Star Wars universe !" because they hated it. They exist just as much as what comes before season 8/9/10 (whichever is the cut-off point to you) and we all gotta deal with it. That is, if you believe in the idea of a "canon" in this show in the first place.

Maybe I'm looking too deep into this though.

Also, I agree with @Quilloughby, I saw more than one person considering the Scully years part of "good Simpsons", mostly because of several jokes, such as, I don't know, "I work haaard for the money...". One of my best friends I quote the show all the time with also loves the first fifteen seasons.

 

[B-Boy]

I'm not comfortable with the idea of calling the seasons that came after the golden age "post-canon Simpsons". You can argue it morphed into a completely different show now - I wholeheartedly agree with this - but this is a remark I find kinda derogatory, makes me think of all those people going like "The Last Jedi isn't canon in the Star Wars universe !" because they hated it. They exist just as much as what comes before season 8/9/10 (whichever is the cut-off point to you) and we all gotta deal with it. That is, if you believe in the idea of a "canon" in this show in the first place.

Maybe I'm looking too deep into this though.

I think you're misunderstanding what Misogi is saying. They're talking about a cultural canon - the seasons or episodes that a culture absorbs and recalls.

 

[Wile E. the Brain]

I think you're misunderstanding what Misogi is saying. They're talking about a cultural canon - the seasons or episodes that a culture absorbs and recalls.

Ah, my bad then. Still, I'm not sure it all stopped right when the golden age ended. Like I said, I do think the Scully years are remembered by the culture of this generation for instance.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

Ah, my bad then. Still, I'm not sure it all stopped right when the golden age ended. Like I said, I do think the Scully years are remembered by the culture of this generation for instance.

Maybe? But the capacity is very fletting. Individual jokes are occasionally remembered, but past the 5F production run, the only thing which anyone really remembers in a substantial capacity is Maude's death. Just watch this 2015 fan-video that was later used as an OP in the show, and consider how little of it is after when we generally agree the Classic Series ended:

 

[CousinMerl]

Ah, my bad then. Still, I'm not sure it all stopped right when the golden age ended. Like I said, I do think the Scully years are remembered by the culture of this generation for instance.

I think it no doubt due to the cultural generation factor. People who grew up with the Scully tenure are bound to remember and even quote it to this day and those growing up with the Pre-HD Jean era will be remembering that one more clearly and fondly.

Heck, I'd argue that there have been some post-classic stuff (moments and a few episodes) to have been showing up in the cultural canon, even if it's not nearly as much as that of the classic era (which is still what the general public outside the fanbase will know of and/or refer to, whether it is an episode or a joke) and it is much (or mostly) due to the passionate fans of the post-classic material.

 

[Kangdos]

I just woke up and comparing Jean-era Simpsons with Hitler and nazis wasn't the thing I expected to see first in this morning.

Really? Even though you've been hanging around these parts for at least 6 years?

 

[B-Boy]

Heck, I'd argue that there have been some post-classic stuff (moments and a few episodes) to have been showing up in the cultural canon

In recent times? I would argue only Treehouse of Horror XXXIII. Maybe.

 

[CousinMerl]

In recent times? I would argue only Treehouse of Horror XXXIII. Maybe.

I was thinking of stuff from a little earlier than that, but it is true that 'Treehouse XXXIII' may have been the one most recent episode to get picked up by current pop culture, even if I'm guessing it may have something to do with the 'Death Tome' segment.

Also, the Mario Kart sequence from 'Lisa Gets An F1' seem to have been a fairly recent one that the masses embraced (I mean, there were even articles about it), but much like the popularity of the 'Death Note' parody segment, I'm sure it is all due to the immense popularity and knowledge of the source material (here Nintendo & Mario franchise), so it's not like it's anything original.

 

[Matty]

Season 10 often tends to be counted as part of the golden age and thusly the "cut-off" point by a lot of fans, increasingly so these days (I suppose in partially due to how many grew up watching it, but also that it does have more good episodes than the following Scully ones, even though I do prefer 12 to 10, due to more interesting episodes and a lot more variety, but that is something for another thread).

I also think partially because 10 is a nice round number and easier to say even though people really mean seasons 1-8/9 (I also expect most casual fans to not know which episodes belong to which season exactly, just that they fall within the first 10 years of the show).

For my generation, watching and loving the show in the 90s, season 10 tends to be the season that made most people quit watching new episodes of the show because it didn't click with them anymore. If not, season 11

 

[CousinMerl]

I also think partially because 10 is a nice round number and easier to say even though people really mean seasons 1-8/9.

I've argued the "nice round number" theory before so I agree, but I did get some detractors saying that isn't really the case (and that they think 10 is part of the classic/golden age).

For my generation, watching and loving the show in the 90s, season 10 tends to be the season that made most people quit watching new episodes of the show because it didn't click with them anymore. If not, season 11

That's what I've heard as well (starting from around when I joined here), so people starting to embrace season 10 seem to be due to the abeformentioned cultural shift, with people who grew up with it starting to get more vocal (and I guess those who "came in late" and don't have the same negative feelings toward 10 as those who watched it when it aired & go in more open minded are some, too).

 

[Wile E. the Brain]

Really? Even though you've been hanging around these parts for at least 6 years?

You know the ol' saying, there's a first time for everything !

 

[Kangdos]

I'm under the impression that while most people back in the day agreed that the show lost it's touch around season 10, new episodes of show nevertheless continued to have a presence in pop culture untill maybe around season 12-13. "Stupid sexy Flanders", crayon in the brain, ect. In terms of objective viewership numbers, at least when it comes to first time airings of new episodes in the US, The Simpsons kicked ass even as late as season 14. I think it's largely a case of The Simpsons, once having been widely accepted as "the best TV show of all time" and "cultural touchstone" and all that in the late 90's (it's often been pointed out how ironic it is that the show gained a lot of it's almost "canonical" standing as a masterpiece of modern human culture around the same time that it was starting to lose it's quality) basically an entire generation of viewers took the show as a for granted part of their lives, like, of course you watch The Simpsons. Maybe not not every single episode, but you watch it. Watching The Simpsons was for teens and 20-something's in the early 00's what watching Spongebob was and still is for little kids. It was on all the time, everybody knew the world and it's characters, and also it was edgy enough to be cool but lame enough that you could watch it even if your grandma and 5 year old niece was in the room (Family Guy and South Park would have to wait untill they left).

Then around season 15 people were like "wait a minute... why though?" and realized that there was actually no point in watching a show that they knew had been halfway semi-decent at it's very best for several years already, and so they finally dropped the show and never looked back except for fondly remembering seasons 1-8 and keeping them alive through endless quoting and internet memes.