Meta Analysis and Narrative Infrastructure Thread

[MisogiKurakawa]

I always liked 'Milhouse Doesn't Live Here Anymore', not only as it gives a great "What if?" story (What if Milhouse wasn't there to be Bart's friend?) and present a fun Bart-Lisa dynamic, but also as it really does show and highlight that Bart really do care for Milhouse as his friend and values him highly, disproving any notion of Bart only "caring" for Milhouse as a lackey to push around as a cohort, revealing that to Bart, Milhouse has actual meaning as a pal. And Milhouse do genuinely seem to care about Bart as a friend too and don't really mind being involved in the various shenanigans Bart pulls him into (aside from showing some hesitation at times) so he tags along for the fun of it, seemingly.

With Bart being left without a best friend (as Milhouse moved away for a while) and bonding more tightly with Lisa as a friend as opposed to just a sister, an episode like this one makes me wishes the show would be a bit more serialized, do story arcs or more two-part episode for the sake of more deeper and more effective narrative and meaningful story/character arcs.

Thing is that is that Milhouse Doesn't Live Here Anymore isn't at all about Milhouse either. As soon as it becomes about Bart and Lisa's relationship, Milhouse pretty much vanishes from any facet of the episode entirely, only showing up again late in to establish his whole deal was resolved offscreen. So instead it just kinda highlights the dichotomy which was fully in play since the Classic series: Bart and Lisa have a very complex and well-rounded relationship which forms an integral part of most of their stories (or is at least highlighted) and characterization, while Milhouse's relationship with Bart is either filled with a lot of troubling implications which the show doesn't seem like it really wants to address, or it's just a completely superficial friendship with no meaning to Bart's character whatsoever. Which kids absolutely do have....but it's not exactly compelling writing unless that's the overt point.

Well part of his troubles are possibly because sidekicks are a cursed role. They're kinda always stuck being an extra pair of hands or someone to explain things to unless they're second to an antagonist or villain. To that extent, he doesn't really contrast a lot with Bart (not in a way that opens up or leads to stories, anyway) and doesn't have any unique skills, and probably couldn't feasibly have any that wouldn't just make him a lesser Martin.

It's curious you bring up Martin, given that, if anything, he's Bart's actually prominent peer in S2. He's got Bart Gets an F, the B-Plot in Lisa's Substitute, and Three Men and a Comic Book all prominently featuring him, while the most Milhouse gets is the single scene in Dancin' Homer and the aforementioned Three Men and a Comic Book, where he's just kinda....there, not doing much while Bart and Martin get most of the dialogue and driving action. It's not until Homer Defined when the writers try to do something with Milhouse as a character, and even then the vast majority of his characterization across S3 shows him in a lot more "normal" a light compared to subsequent seasons.

I think all of this comes back to Bart's Friend Falls in Love and specifically its ending. Because the episode more or less leaves the show on a complete blank concerning the Bart/Milhouse dynamic - Bart does something pretty horrible to Milhouse for believable but overall inexcusable reasons, initially shows zero guilt until it becomes clear Milhouse won't play with him even with Samantha gone, and then....the episode basically works backwards to make it so that Bart doesn't have to genuinely face repercussions for his actions. He apologizes to Samantha for what he did, only for this to be dismissed literally seconds later by Samantha saying she likes St Sebastian's and doesn't want to leave (which has a lot of very uncomfortable implications, considering that her father is implied to be an abusive control freak). Bart essentially gets off with exactly what he wanted out of the affair, while Milhouse loses the girl who genuinely liked him and is stuck with his toxic friendship with Bart. There's basically no message here, and that I think really dramatically effected the development of the character when you compare how the likes of Moe and Edna were developed in their respective spotlight stories that season.

 

[Venomrabbit]

FWIW, Milhouse does do the sidekick bit well. Someone like Bart does sometimes need someone to just talk at and he can be funny, that alone does give him value. He's just a very... passive character without much influence of his own.

But I think being a more minor presence would suit him just fine. Sometimes you do just need someone to be an extra body. Three Men and a Comic Book is a good example. Bart and Martin command most of the screentime but the way the events go, they do need a third person. And while there's stronger personalities in Bart's class, that might've been a hinderance, making things feel either overcrowded or would have had too much of an effect. So Milhouse is a good choice sometimes. And if he could be funny at that like later, all the better. Kinda like how Lenny and Carl can add a bit to Homer + Moe eps or fill in some gaps without distracting much from the meat of it.

I guess the problem then has less to do with Milhouse existing and more that he was so prioritized over the other classmates to the point where he's almost the only character tied much to Bart other than Skinner now*. It's kinda like if you did a Batman show but didn't bother with the rogue's gallery and thought just focusing a ton on Robin would be enough. I dunno if it got brought up before but it does give one possible reason why Bart's had such a hard time getting attention lately without someone else in the family either backing him up or taking charge. Homer'd probably be a similar story if you shaved his circle down to just Lenny and Carl.

* I mean there's Nelson too... sorta. He's been sanded down a bit though, imo.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

FWIW, Milhouse does do the sidekick bit well. Someone like Bart does sometimes need someone to just talk at and he can be funny, that alone does give him value. He's just a very... passive character without much influence of his own.

But I think being a more minor presence would suit him just fine. Sometimes you do just need someone to be an extra body. Three Men and a Comic Book is a good example. Bart and Martin command most of the screentime but the way the events go, they do need a third person. And while there's stronger personalities in Bart's class, that might've been a hinderance, making things feel either overcrowded or would have had too much of an effect. So Milhouse is a good choice sometimes. And if he could be funny at that like later, all the better. Kinda like how Lenny and Carl can add a bit to Homer + Moe eps or fill in some gaps without distracting much from the meat of it.

I guess the problem then has less to do with Milhouse existing and more that he was so prioritized over the other classmates to the point where he's almost the only character tied much to Bart other than Skinner now*. It's kinda like if you did a Batman show but didn't bother with the rogue's gallery and thought just focusing a ton on Robin would be enough. I dunno if it got brought up before but it does give one possible reason why Bart's had such a hard time getting attention lately without someone else in the family either backing him up or taking charge. Homer'd probably be a similar story if you shaved his circle down to just Lenny and Carl.

* I mean there's Nelson too... sorta. He's been sanded down a bit though, imo.

Thing is, I don't really buy that, because few characters in the secondary cast tied to Bart actually had an overt impact on his classic stories. Milhouse influenced a number, but Nelson's impact was mostly only felt in two stories with him as antagonist (Bart the General and Saturdays of Thunder), and Martin's relevance was mostly phased out around S3. The majority of Bart's stories were generally driven his relationship with his family (mostly Lisa, who is easily his most important relationship in the classic series), that of guest characters (namely Bob, Laura, and Jessica), or characters outside of his general space in the worldbuilding (such as Burns in Burns' Heir). In that sense, he was actually not dissimilar to how Lisa was handled if anything - Bart's part just felt bigger because there were considerably more named characters in his class.

It's also worth remembering that Homer didn't really have a social circle himself in the classic series - that's largely a post-classic invention. Barney was nominally his best friend, but was used mostly for increasingly sparing gags, and Carl and Lenny weren't really meant as characters he had a meaningful relationship of any kind; their role was to represent what the other workers at the plant were like and how he interacted with them. He did have developed relationships with Moe and Apu, but it's overall a lot slimmer than people realize.

 

[CousinMerl]

Thing is that is that Milhouse Doesn't Live Here Anymore isn't at all about Milhouse either. As soon as it becomes about Bart and Lisa's relationship, Milhouse pretty much vanishes from any facet of the episode entirely, only showing up again late in to establish his whole deal was resolved offscreen. So instead it just kinda highlights the dichotomy which was fully in play since the Classic series: Bart and Lisa have a very complex and well-rounded relationship which forms an integral part of most of their stories (or is at least highlighted) and characterization, while Milhouse's relationship with Bart is either filled with a lot of troubling implications which the show doesn't seem like it really wants to address, or it's just a completely superficial friendship with no meaning to Bart's character whatsoever. Which kids absolutely do have....but it's not exactly compelling writing unless that's the overt point.

I never said that I didn't take into account how it is relatively little about Milhouse. SUre, when the focus shifts onto Bart & Lisa, Milhouse do become kinda forgotten and show up at the end all of a sudden, with that reveal how he could move back to Springfield (and timely enough to end Bart & Lisa's growing friendship, which was kind of a shame, but I do like how Bart still gained a lot more respect for her).

I mean, sure, it does highlight the dichotomy of Bart & Lisa having a complex relationship which is well formed with depth and nuances, while Bart & Milhouse never got that amount of attention from the writers. Yeah, they haven't really dealth with the implications of the more toxic side of it (with Bart treating Milhouse as a lackey from time to time) & the friendship do appear as a bit shallow and meaningless to Bart. But having said that, we shouldn't forget that Bart every now and then treat Milhouse a more of an equal and doesn't really push him around (so it's not mistreatment all the time) and as shown in an episode like this, it isn't an altogether complerely superficial friendship that has no meaning to bart at all, but Bart find Milhouse and the friendship/companionship he brings to be valuable & meaningful.

I guess I just find you look at this a little bit cynically and narrowly (as in Bart's friendship with Milhouse is all meaningless and really toxic and disturbing & this episode had essentially no points) rather that every now and then, we do see that that Milhouse actually mean something to Bart as a friend (whom is valued, not just seen as a cohort/sidekick to push around), of which this episode do highlight (even though the episode does little with Milhouse after the halfway point, but again, they can only do so much in 21-22 minutes; I man, this needed to be a two-parter or arc to be done justice, not just something to qquickly solve off-screen and shove Milhouse back into the game. This was truly a story worth doing for more than just one episode and just suddenly hit the RESET button. That was cowardly, or lazy).

I dunno, I think there's a few more sides and some nuance to this than mainly something all negative. May just be me

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

I never said that I didn't take into account how it is relatively little about Milhouse. SUre, when the focus shifts onto Bart & Lisa, Milhouse do become kinda forgotten and show up at the end all of a sudden, with that reveal how he could move back to Springfield (and timely enough to end Bart & Lisa's growing friendship, which was kind of a shame, but I do like how Bart still gained a lot more respect for her).

I mean, sure, it does highlight the dichotomy of Bart & Lisa having a complex relationship which is well formed with depth and nuances, while Bart & Milhouse never got that amount of attention from the writers. Yeah, they haven't really dealth with the implications of the more toxic side of it (with Bart treating Milhouse as a lackey from time to time) & the friendship do appear as a bit shallow and meaningless to Bart. But having said that, we shouldn't forget that Bart every now and then treat Milhouse a more of an equal and doesn't really push him around (so it's not mistreatment all the time) and as shown in an episode like this, it isn't an altogether complerely superficial friendship that has no meaning to bart at all, but Bart find Milhouse and the friendship/companionship he brings to be valuable & meaningful.

I guess I just find you look at this a little bit cynically and narrowly (as in Bart's friendship with Milhouse is all meaningless and really toxic and disturbing & this episode had essentially no points) rather that every now and then, we do see that that Milhouse actually mean something to Bart as a friend (whom is valued, not just seen as a cohort/sidekick to push around), of which this episode do highlight (even though the episode does little with Milhouse after the halfway point, but again, they can only do so much in 21-22 minutes; I man, this needed to be a two-parter or arc to be done justice, not just something to qquickly solve off-screen and shove Milhouse back into the game. This was truly a story worth doing for more than just one episode and just suddenly hit the RESET button. That was cowardly, or lazy).

I dunno, I think there's a few more sides and some nuance to this than mainly something all negative. May just be me

The issue is that, why you can argue it's nice to see a somewhat healthier interpretation of Bart and Milhouse's relationship (and I wouldn't entirely disagree), it doesn't really amend the issues inherent to their classic portrayal. If anything, it just represents the problem I have with a lot of Bart's portrayals post-classic (especially in the Selman seasons) of heavily sanitizing the "bad kid" and making him overly kind and empathetic. I dunno, Bart does cry in the classic series, but it takes a lot to make it happen - that's a major part of why the end of Bart Gets An F is so powerful, and thus it feels weird that he'd be driven to tears over losing his relationship with Milhouse. Depressed and emotional, yes, but crying?



This actually speaks to some interesting nuances of the Homer Defined B-Plot and Bart's Friend Falls in Love that someone on Discord pointed out to me. Despite Milhouse being the ostensible "sidekick", it's actually Bart who is the one much more strongly effected by the premise of their relationship ending or changing. Milhouse is pretty openly upset about his mother cutting him off from Bart, but when he discreetly calls Bart to apologize to him, Bart responds by angrily dumping the walky-talky in the bin, feeling betrayed over something which isn't even Milhouse's fault. Milhouse likewise doesn't try to cut Bart off at all when he meets Samantha, Bart just gets uncomfortable first because of Samantha being a girl (it's worth noting that Milhouse directly states he has other friends Bart is apparently completely fine with) and then because of the idea of Milhouse wanting to be with said girl rather than hanging out with him. Bart's behaviour afterwards is pretty awful, but it does make sense for his character to go to such a degree that Milhouse eventually calls him out for trying to insert himself invasively into his life.

I dunno, maybe it's kinda futile to try and look for a more nuanced reading of the relationship in the classic series, but I do feel like, on another look through, that there was something in those two S3 stories that was workable. Their friendship isn't healthy - Bart's reactions and actions show him as incredibly selfish and possessive - but Milhouse being the kinda lonely "normal" kid who hangs out with Bart mostly because Bart himself values having someone to always hang out with? That's actually a story dynamic that I feels works, and adds something meaningful to Bart's character. But it's also not the relationship the show ran with. Instead, Milhouse is mostly written as this weirdly blank cipher of a "friend" character who just hangs out with Bart for no ostensibly clear reason, even though Bart rarely seems to show much investment in him as a person and multiple times does weirdly messed up stuff to him for seemingly no reason. Overall, it seems that the more Milhouse's personality was defined by "loser" and not "Bart's friend", the less and less invested the writing became in actually giving him and Bart a meaningful dynamic whatsoever.

 

[CousinMerl]

The issue is that, why you can argue it's nice to see a somewhat healthier interpretation of Bart and Milhouse's relationship (and I wouldn't entirely disagree), it doesn't really amend the issues inherent to their classic portrayal. If anything, it just represents the problem I have with a lot of Bart's portrayals post-classic (especially in the Selman seasons) of heavily sanitizing the "bad kid" and making him overly kind and empathetic. I dunno, Bart does cry in the classic series, but it takes a lot to make it happen - that's a major part of why the end of Bart Gets An F is so powerful, and thus it feels weird that he'd be driven to tears over losing his relationship with Milhouse. Depressed and emotional, yes, but crying?

Well, yeah, I don't have any arguments against that as I agree. The classic era portrayal of Bart & Milhouse's friendship certainly is fairly problematic (or something close to it, at least) and even if later seasons tried to add some nuance and other sides to it, as we saw in 'Milhoue Doesn't Live Here Anymore', their (arguably) much more unhealthy and inherently flawed friendship from the classic era is still there and make these kind of happenings in the post classic era feel a little strange (or at least a bit jarring).

And yes, it do come off as jarring with Bart being more human and empathetic with more feelings in the post classic era, and yeah, they have often sanitized him and made him much more of a nicer and multifaceted person, which I'd like to point out isn't necessarily a bad thing in itself (as it adds more layers to him and in various shows running for many seasons, some characters will change and develop fairly noticeably) but really can be overdone, as we have seen when it has devolved him into someone who cries a lot more easily (which is one reason I object to that one scene in 'Go Big Or Go Homer', when the waterworks started after he's put down by Mike, which do feel particularily OOC; surely it'd take much more than this for him to cry all night long? Was like they had too much fun with making Bart a pathetic crybaby this time, as per his poor treatment by most of the writers around that time on the show, which I don't miss).

I don't remember there being that much crying when Milhouse moved away, though he did take it really hard and was very emotional about it. And Bart being this emotionally upset with it in this episode handled well, at least in my opinion (there are other post-classic stories where I really do have something to complain about when it comes to Bart's softer, more nuanced portrayal, but this was not really one).

This actually speaks to some interesting nuances of the Homer Defined B-Plot and Bart's Friend Falls in Love that someone on Discord pointed out to me. Despite Milhouse being the ostensible "sidekick", it's actually Bart who is the one much more strongly effected by the premise of their relationship ending or changing. Milhouse is pretty openly upset about his mother cutting him off from Bart, but when he discreetly calls Bart to apologize to him, Bart responds by angrily dumping the walky-talky in the bin, feeling betrayed over something which isn't even Milhouse's fault. Milhouse likewise doesn't try to cut Bart off at all when he meets Samantha, Bart just gets uncomfortable first because of Samantha being a girl (it's worth noting that Milhouse directly states he has other friends Bart is apparently completely fine with) and then because of the idea of Milhouse wanting to be with said girl rather than hanging out with him. Bart's behaviour afterwards is pretty awful, but it does make sense for his character to go to such a degree that Milhouse eventually calls him out for trying to insert himself invasively into his life.

Feels like too bad we can only use Homer Defined & Bart's Friend Falls In Love as examples (they do seem to come up an awful lot), but there isn't many more early examples of Bart & Milhouse's friendship to use, really (I guess 'Marge Be Not Proud' which kind of flips the roles a bit, with Milhouse being the bad friend and Bart the nicer part of the two, but it's essentially just an extended joke. Plus I guess 'Bart Sells His Soul' is another instance of Milhouse not being so above it all either, which gave him some more depth).

But anyhow, I like those nuances and how those instances that Bart take any eventual conflicts in the relations between the two more seriously, reacting a lot more harshly even with minor things & it do show that Milhouse, on some levels, do mean a lot to Bart as a friend and more easier see some sort of betrayal (which I think is just natural characterization; it is very natural for a boy, especially someone like Bart, being very emotionally upset and blame the other party, in this case Milhouse). And Milhouse's reactions, calling him out and also lashing out (in the instance of 'Bart's Friend Falls In Love' I think add a lot to this conflict (and on his part it is also really understandable).

There's kind of a realism to it that I like, much like how 'Milhouse Doesn't Live Here Anymore' explores a more or less emotional side of their relationship, with Milhouse possibly moving away forever and it being probably the most upset Bart became regarding the frienship coming to an end. Plus it is a type of plot I think many can relate to, with a friend moving away and causing a close friendship to split up.

I dunno, maybe it's kinda futile to try and look for a more nuanced reading of the relationship in the classic series, but I do feel like, on another look through, that there was something in those two S3 stories that was workable. Their friendship isn't healthy - Bart's reactions and actions show him as incredibly selfish and possessive - but Milhouse being the kinda lonely "normal" kid who hangs out with Bart mostly because Bart himself values having someone to always hang out with? That's actually a story dynamic that I feels works, and adds something meaningful to Bart's character.

I don't think it is futile at all, as there is some nuance to their relationship in the classic seasons & in S3 it was workable, despite the inherent flaws of the friendship (certainly not the shining example of a healthy one). Your description of their friendship as Milhouse being the "normal" one whom is friends with Bart much as the latter values having someone close to him as a friend, sidekick and maybe confidant makes sense and is a good story dynamic, even though it was something they rarely took advantage of.

Having said that, I would still also give credit to some of the Bart & Milhouse-centric post-classic stories, seeing as I do find some of them, such as the abeformentioned 'Milhouse Doesn't Live Here Anymore' also give some nice angles to look at their friendship in and interesting story and narrative potential (and so that we aren't just stuck discussing those classic era episodes over and over). So I wouldn't leave the Bart & Milhouse dynamics of the post-classic era out of it as they have given some interesting story dynamics & writing, even if the two doesn't end up being a main focus of it (I mean, the conflict of, say, Clan of The Cave Mom' essentially stemmed out of their friendship and it gave a really good & interesting episode. And Bart & Milhouse were essentially forced apart by Marge & Luanne's petty conflict before, in the end, they patched things up due to Marge taking the first step and reunited Bart & Milhouse).

But it's also not the relationship the show ran with. Instead, Milhouse is mostly written as this weirdly blank cipher of a "friend" character who just hangs out with Bart for no ostensibly clear reason, even though Bart rarely seems to show much investment in him as a person and multiple times does weirdly messed up stuff to him for seemingly no reason. Overall, it seems that the more Milhouse's personality was defined by "loser" and not "Bart's friend", the less and less invested the writing became in actually giving him and Bart a meaningful dynamic whatsoever.

There has indeed been much more of a superficial view of their friendship over the post-classic era, with Milhouse being more of a fairly flat, straightforward companion with Bart whom pushes him around and doesn't really seem to care for as a friend. Feels like the writers are much more interested in Kirk and by extent Luanne and how messed up & toxic the Van Houten family is (with Milhouse being caught in the middle and, yeah, mostly being portrayed as the loser dork (with some really creepy & pathetic sides) and not really as Bart's friend. I mean, Milhouse has essentially been devolved into more of a joke than an actual character and it is a shame).

They essentially have a complete lack of ideas when it comes to Milhouse and they could, and should, put more effort into giving Bart & Milhouse an interesting, fun & certainly meaningful dynamic, especially to let Milhouse shine some and show even more that he is important and do mean something to Bart, as we've seen throughout the show. So yes, I'd like more 'Milhouse Doesn't Live Here Anymore' type episodes about their friendship and its dynamic & nuances (and maybe this time more focus on them & less reset button endings).

But yeah, again, I think the post-classic era do have some good additional aspects, bits and pieces of Bart & Milhouse's friendship, so those are arguably not just limited to the classic era and some select episodes, even though few plots are about their friendship specifically.

 

[MaryWrite]

I think what could improve Bart and Milhouse's friendship is one of these.

Bart does care for Milhouse as he was his first and oldest friend, but his mischievous and recklessness leads him to getting Milhouse in trouble. Bart is half Homer, so he can be ignorant to how severe or bad the things he does to his friend. He doesn't fully respect him, but he still cares for him to stick up when he needs it.

I have some more but Im busy rn.

 

[CousinMerl]

I think what could improve Bart and Milhouse's friendship is one of these.

Bart does care for Milhouse as he was his first and oldest friend, but his mischievous and recklessness leads him to getting Milhouse in trouble. Bart is half Homer, so he can be ignorant to how severe or bad the things he does to his friend. He doesn't fully respect him, but he still cares for him to stick up when he needs it.

That makes a lot of sense. Seems like a good angle they should play into more, staying true to Bart as a character (he is indeed a Half-Homer and always has, even though he likely wouldn't admit it) and allowing for more fleshing out his relationship with Milhouse, maybe putting it to the test with the two getting into some pinch and having to rely on one another and their friendship bond (Maybe having Milhouse end up in trouble that require bart's full attention and having to do all to be there for his friend)?

But it would require them making Milhouse into an actual character again rather than a pathetic and/or creepy punchline & have Bart caring for his friend once more (but as we've seen in something like 'Clan of The Cave Mom', he still values their friendship).

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

Feels like too bad we can only use Homer Defined & Bart's Friend Falls In Love as examples (they do seem to come up an awful lot), but there isn't many more early examples of Bart & Milhouse's friendship to use, really (I guess 'Marge Be Not Proud' which kind of flips the roles a bit, with Milhouse being the bad friend and Bart the nicer part of the two, but it's essentially just an extended joke. Plus I guess 'Bart Sells His Soul' is another instance of Milhouse not being so above it all either, which gave him some more depth).

But anyhow, I like those nuances and how those instances that Bart take any eventual conflicts in the relations between the two more seriously, reacting a lot more harshly even with minor things & it do show that Milhouse, on some levels, do mean a lot to Bart as a friend and more easier see some sort of betrayal (which I think is just natural characterization; it is very natural for a boy, especially someone like Bart, being very emotionally upset and blame the other party, in this case Milhouse). And Milhouse's reactions, calling him out and also lashing out (in the instance of 'Bart's Friend Falls In Love' I think add a lot to this conflict (and on his part it is also really understandable).

There's kind of a realism to it that I like, much like how 'Milhouse Doesn't Live Here Anymore' explores a more or less emotional side of their relationship, with Milhouse possibly moving away forever and it being probably the most upset Bart became regarding the frienship coming to an end. Plus it is a type of plot I think many can relate to, with a friend moving away and causing a close friendship to split up.

Milhouse's behaviour in Bart Sells His Soul doesn't really say anything though, given both the quasi-supernatural tone of the story and how the story is designed to drive Bart to his lowest point. Milhouse snitching on Bart is explicitly because of Lovejoy's threat, which just shows him as a superstitious coward (something entirely in-character) rather than him being overtly teachurous. Him laughing like a psycho at denying Bart his soul is....nasty, yes, but it's worth remembering the context; Bart is constantly being subject to weirdly disturbing stuff throughout the entire episode because of his lost soul (see the street sweeper), and the implication seems to be that Milhouse's oddly uncharacteristic heel turn is part of that. Take note that he's entirely back to normal later after he's sold it (for ALF, in Pog form).

So no, in practice....it really is just those two stories. Every other time in the classic series there's either specific context, or Milhouse is just kinda there, acting as comic relief. There's nothing specifically wrong with that persay, but it does highlight what an oddly superficial and meaningless character he is in spite of being supposedly one of the "major" secondaries, and also highlights the increasingly prevalent attempts to give him "focus" in post-classic feel....misguided. Not just because of how they pretty much always highlight the toxic nature of his relationships with the Simpsons siblings, but because the writers seem to have been under the impression that they created a more complex and fully-realized character than they actually had.

I think what could improve Bart and Milhouse's friendship is one of these.

Bart does care for Milhouse as he was his first and oldest friend, but his mischievous and recklessness leads him to getting Milhouse in trouble. Bart is half Homer, so he can be ignorant to how severe or bad the things he does to his friend. He doesn't fully respect him, but he still cares for him to stick up when he needs it.

I have some more but Im busy rn.

That's more or less the starting point of what I described in their S3 dynamic....though I am interested to see where you'd go from there. You have interesting ideas on Bart's relationships.

 

[CousinMerl]

Milhouse's behaviour in Bart Sells His Soul doesn't really say anything though, given both the quasi-supernatural tone of the story and how the story is designed to drive Bart to his lowest point. Milhouse snitching on Bart is explicitly because of Lovejoy's threat, which just shows him as a superstitious coward (something entirely in-character) rather than him being overtly teachurous. Him laughing like a psycho at denying Bart his soul is....nasty, yes, but it's worth remembering the context; Bart is constantly being subject to weirdly disturbing stuff throughout the entire episode because of his lost soul (see the street sweeper), and the implication seems to be that Milhouse's oddly uncharacteristic heel turn is part of that. Take note that he's entirely back to normal later after he's sold it (for ALF, in Pog form).

Don't take me mentioning 'Bart Sells His Soul' so seriously or analyse it too deeply (like you did). I too was skeptical of mentioning it.

Heck, it was actually a very late decision by me to add it as an additional episode in the post (actually added it after posting and a few minutes) & I still feel the episode's absurdity and "quasi-supernatural" tone, at you put it, makes it not really feel eligible as yeah, so much of it is over the top & Milhouse felt in character (outside of that psycho moment), as opposed to 'Marge Be Not Proud', in which his unusual attitude toward Bart (lying to get rid of his friend so Bart couldn't play a two-player game with him) isn't as easily explained.

So no, in practice....it really is just those two stories. Every other time in the classic series there's either specific context, or Milhouse is just kinda there, acting as comic relief. There's nothing specifically wrong with that persay, but it does highlight what an oddly superficial and meaningless character he is in spite of being supposedly one of the "major" secondaries, and also highlights the increasingly prevalent attempts to give him "focus" in post-classic feel....misguided. Not just because of how they pretty much always highlight the toxic nature of his relationships with the Simpsons siblings, but because the writers seem to have been under the impression that they created a more complex and fully-realized character than they actually had.

In the classic era, I would agree it is pretty much only those stories that actually cared about whom Milhouse was both as a person and as Bart's friend (at least by using your criteria) while I wouldn't discount any episode or moment that had Milhouse in it in some form outside of being a comic relief or a presence, but yeah, in terms of their friendship, only those episodes highlighted it.

I mean, sure, it is nothing wrong with having Milhouse as the funny goofy sidekick, but you do make a point, in how he has proven to be fairly meaningless to some "higher" degree outside of a comedic spectrum after that couple of episodes (and a few others, such as, again, 'Milhouse Doesn't Live Here Anymore', which in spite of him essentially being a no-show in its third act or so was about his and Bart's relationship, even though you clearly don't like to count that episode or like it in any sense of the word, as it seems).

Now, I'd not say that all of Milhouse's "focus" stories in the post-classic era has been as misguided as you make them out to be, but compared to 'Bart Friends falls In Love' they all come off as really shallow and indeed like they treat him as a fuller character. Or really choosing to avoid him altogether, minimizing his role to focus on Kirk & Luanne whom the writers seem to like much more from a writing perspective, despite both being really crappy people in different ways & Milhouse, as a focal character, being caught in that should be a bigger deal than it is and could/should be a springing board for actually doing more with him.

 

[Kangdos]

I like the classic eras frequent portrayal of the Bart/Milhouse relationship as essentially shallow and without deeper emotions from any party, simply because it's funny. Bart regularly treats Milhouse like hired help and never feels bad about it, and Milhouse is naive enogh to go along with it, but at the same time Milhouse is actually shown again and again to be at the most neutral in his feelings towards Bart, as in, he just doesn't care to stand by Bart when the going gets rough. He abandons Bart when the latter breaks his leg, he abandons Bart for Samantha, he doesn't throw back the vine (but in his defense, there was no time!) ect. This completely non-sentimental "friendship" between the two is actually a pretty accurate parody on how a lot of friendships between pre-pubescent boys are like, and, again, it's funny, so it's fine by me.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

I like the classic eras frequent portrayal of the Bart/Milhouse relationship as essentially shallow and without deeper emotions from any party, simply because it's funny. Bart regularly treats Milhouse like hired help and never feels bad about it, and Milhouse is naive enogh to go along with it, but at the same time Milhouse is actually shown again and again to be at the most neutral in his feelings towards Bart, as in, he just doesn't care to stand by Bart when the going gets rough. He abandons Bart when the latter breaks his leg, he abandons Bart for Samantha, he doesn't throw back the vine (but in his defense, there was no time!) ect. This completely non-sentimental "friendship" between the two is actually a pretty accurate parody on how a lot of friendships between pre-pubescent boys are like, and, again, it's funny, so it's fine by me.

But Milhouse didn't abandon Bart for Samantha - that's just flat-out untrue. He literally brings her to the treehouse with the intent of letting her hang out with them, and we later see them watching I&S with Bart at his home; the conflict is Bart perceiving it as "abandonment" because he's overly possessive of their friendship and views Samantha as an invader. Just because Milhouse isn't as attached doesn't mean he doesn't still want to be Bart's friend.

 

[I Love Lisa]

I like the classic eras frequent portrayal of the Bart/Milhouse relationship as essentially shallow and without deeper emotions from any party, simply because it's funny. Bart regularly treats Milhouse like hired help and never feels bad about it, and Milhouse is naive enogh to go along with it, but at the same time Milhouse is actually shown again and again to be at the most neutral in his feelings towards Bart, as in, he just doesn't care to stand by Bart when the going gets rough. He abandons Bart when the latter breaks his leg, he abandons Bart for Samantha, he doesn't throw back the vine (but in his defense, there was no time!) ect. This completely non-sentimental "friendship" between the two is actually a pretty accurate parody on how a lot of friendships between pre-pubescent boys are like, and, again, it's funny, so it's fine by me.

That's a very good point actually and those of us posting in places like this I think can occassionally forget that ultimately we're talking about a comedy (I very much include myself in that when I'm writing essay-length stuff about Lisa!). I think @MisogiKurakawa has several good points that Milhouse for the most part doesn't carry much narrative importance (it's notable that most episodes in the earlier years at least that initially seem to be about him seem to end up focusing on someone else) and we are in the "narrative infrastructure" thread of course, but Milhouse is funny. In fact before he ended up becoming "the guy who's creepy to Lisa" he was arguably one of the funniest side characters (which makes the Lisa creeping development even more unfortunate) so he does provide a meaningful contribution to the series by providing laughs so maybe that's good enough? Maybe not the best developed character in terms of the series text (to borrow Misogi's term), but I feel like in the classic years that's not really his "job" for the most part and that's fine. He's a great success as a comedy character and if that's all he's intended to be I'm perfectly happy with that.

Also whilst I can't personally comment on the accuracy of the depiction of friendship between young boys for fairly obvious reasons I do think there is something to that. Young male friendships do often seem to be entirely shallow and non-sentimental from what I can tell (although again this is outside observation on my part), based on not much more than happening to sit next to each other in the classroom or something like that so the idea that Bart and Milhouse have a relatively insubtantial relationship beneath the surface does seem quite realistic to me. The show as a whole has also depicted male friendship as being essentially about nothing on other occassions as well so it would tie into that too.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

That's a very good point actually and those of us posting in places like this I think can occassionally forget that ultimately we're talking about a comedy (I very much include myself in that when I'm writing essay-length stuff about Lisa!). I think @MisogiKurakawa has several good points that Milhouse for the most part doesn't carry much narrative importance (it's notable that most episodes in the earlier years at least that initially seem to be about him seem to end up focusing on someone else) and we are in the "narrative infrastructure" thread of course, but Milhouse is funny. In fact before he ended up becoming "the guy who's creepy to Lisa" he was arguably one of the funniest side characters (which makes the Lisa creeping development even more unfortunate) so he does provide a meaningful contribution to the series by providing laughs so maybe that's good enough? Maybe not the best developed character in terms of the series text (to borrow Misogi's term), but I feel like in the classic years that's not really his "job" for the most part and that's fine. He's a great success as a comedy character and if that's all he's intended to be I'm perfectly happy with that.

Also whilst I can't personally comment on the accuracy of the depiction of friendship between young boys for fairly obvious reasons I do think there is something to that. Young male friendships do often seem to be entirely shallow and non-sentimental from what I can tell (although again this is outside observation on my part), based on not much more than happening to sit next to each other in the classroom or something like that so the idea that Bart and Milhouse have a relatively insubtantial relationship beneath the surface does seem quite realistic to me. The show as a whole has also depicted male friendship as being essentially about nothing on other occassions as well so it would tie into that too.

Interesting that you bring up the point of his Lisa obsession, given that goes back to my prior observation that it seems like the reason they jumped on that was because it provided a "solution" to his general lack of relevance outside of being disposable comic relief. Rather than being an almost entirely passive character only defined generally by his relationship with Bart, the Lisa thing allowed them to give Milhouse some kind of internal drive that made him more....malleable, I guess is the right term?

This if anything accentuates the point I already made with Lisa/Nelson - in both cases, the relationships aren't in the interest of actually furthering Lisa as a character. They're in the interest of giving the boys some kind of more "meaningful" role which amounts to a lot of unfunny cutaway gags with the infrequent attempt to make the relationship "work" springing up down the line. That the show's most prominent female character, a devote feminist with strong ideals and beliefs, is essentially used as a prop for two of the boy characters to fawn over is pretty bad in itself, but it becomes if anything worse when one considers how Milhouse's relationship with Lisa is effectively just used to denigrate her in many instances. Just awful all around.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

So, since we now have another episode focusing on Homer's "friend group", let's talk about Lenny and Carl.



Lenny and Carl are....odd as characters, to put it mildly. Despite having been a part of the cast since Season 1, and being treated by the show as very prominent for the most part, they are also complete and utter ciphers insofar as being actual characters are concerned. I ask you - can you name any actual, longstanding characterization the two have received? Maybe you can argue for Carl's two "focus" episodes, but both of those are way further down the line, and are just two isolated roles for half the duo amidst literal hundreds of appearances. Lenny has had plastic surgery (which somehow reverted mid-story), enacted a reign of terror, gotten a mountain in Carl's image, gotten disturbingly buff, and may or may not biologically lack a penis, along with a lot of other stuff, but none of it whatsoever is actually meant to contribute to a coherent character. They are just things they had him do, and this is the very consistent oddity which has characterized both of them. They are "Homer's friends and co-workers", with literally all other characterization being effectively optional.

The reason for that, of course, is because "Homer's friends" was never the role these two were supposed to feel narratively. Sure, they might be on good terms with him, but in-story, what Lenny and Carl are far more made to represent is what the other workers at the plant even are, and how Homer contrasts them. Case in point, there's a character relationship chart in the first issue of Simpsons Illustrated, and there they are not labeled as Homer's friends, that's an honour only given to Barney and Moe. Rather, they're referred to pretty exclusively as Homer's co-workers, the guys he just casually chats with at work and knows personally, but doesn't really know each other, nor do they really have the same investment in their work. Whilst Carl is shown handling a meeting amongst the union and Lenny is shown as a devote member, Homer spent a strike more interested in a burrito than protesting. Whilst their future selves are shown as part of the board, Homer is where he's always been. Whilst they represent the fractured teamwork during the retreat, Homer is paired with Burns, who openly cheats. There is a consistent "othering" with Homer as the subject that they're used to accentuate, and that in turn is the entire fundamental joke; A man like Homer Simpson should not be working at a nuclear power plant.

It's important to remember that, as @Sandboy has noted, the duo were never actually featured in any of Homer's classic plots in a significant capacity. If there was a plot involving the plant in some fashion, either it was Homer getting mixed up in Burns' latest scheme, or involved a new character, be it Karl, Mindy, or Grimes, and how they interacted with Homer's life. The show kinda understood in that sense that Lenny and Carl were not characters you were meant to care about...because they're not really characters. They're a symbolic narrative device, personified in two guys Homer talks with on the regular. They demonstrate the kind of mundane, soulless labour Homer is subject to on a day-to-day basis under Burns' thumb, labour Homer is in no way invested or qualified to do, but does so for his family. Being at the plant is not meant to be fun, it's work, and any conflicts that arise from that are in some way related to the very fundamental fact that Homer should not be here.

Then the show forgot this.



There isn't a specific "point" where the misunderstanding of Lenny and Carl's role begins. It's more a gradual slide, beginning around S6 when they started showing up as regulars at Moe's, a point which signals the bar's own transformation from a rundown representation of Homer's moral and personal failings to basically a glorified hangout spot for him and his friends. From there, we get more scenes of them being super buddy-buddy, a flashback depicting Lenny at Homer's high-school and dating Marge, and eventually the show just going all out and retconning them into being Homer's childhood friends (a concept it's worth noting was Jean's idea, even if the episode was technically Scully). Which is a concept which is both horrible for worldbuilding (Homer has just been hanging out with the same two guys his entire life) and makes a lot of their interactions bizarre, but it makes perfect sense if you consider the prevailing logic here - iconography-wise, Lenny and Carl are Homer's pals, so they are always his pals, were always, and never stop being his pals. That became their "role" as it was, with their characterization shifting in turn to become dumber, lazier and more like Homer to accommodate it.

This in turn had a profound effect on a lot of the series worldbuilding. Suddenly, the SNPP wasn't a soul-crushing environment Homer would do anything if he could get out of working at: it's a place where he has his two best friends in the world to goof around with and support him in anything he does. The entire conflict of the plant which is central to Homer's character, and which Lenny and Carl were instrumental in establishing (I think this needs to be reinforced, they were not meaningless gag characters) is effectively null-and-void, because there is no real loss Homer is actually enduring by working there, he's effectively got everything he wants. And losing that sacrifices a huge amount of the dimension from Homer's character, because he's no longer an ordinary oaf enduring a job he dislikes for his family - instead, the lack of real context just distorts Homer into being either a cipher himself, or the comedy ubermensch, capable of doing whatever because there is nothing holding him down.

There's basically no story to Lenny and Carl, not even the concept of one like with Milhouse. Homer's "best friends" aren't even really his friends - unless you consider his best friend himself. Because that is what Lenny and Carl are essentially. They are just extensions of Homer, lacking individual thoughts, feelings, or personal lives of their own, because those things would interfere with their capacity to act as extensions. All they accomplish, effectively, is taking away from Homer, taking away those kinds of instrumental aspects that make him Homer in favour of the idea of Homer Simpson. He could have two mops with watermelons on top, and it'd accomplish the same effect. That is all the relationship amounts to; a black hole.

I dunno, I feel like Homer could've had better friends.

 

[CousinMerl]

I think @MisogiKurakawa has several good points that Milhouse for the most part doesn't carry much narrative importance (it's notable that most episodes in the earlier years at least that initially seem to be about him seem to end up focusing on someone else) and we are in the "narrative infrastructure" thread of course, but Milhouse is funny. In fact before he ended up becoming "the guy who's creepy to Lisa" he was arguably one of the funniest side characters (which makes the Lisa creeping development even more unfortunate) so he does provide a meaningful contribution to the series by providing laughs so maybe that's good enough? Maybe not the best developed character in terms of the series text (to borrow Misogi's term), but I feel like in the classic years that's not really his "job" for the most part and that's fine. He's a great success as a comedy character and if that's all he's intended to be I'm perfectly happy with that.

Yeah, I absolutely think they nailed Milhouse as a funny comic relief side character (aside from him being a creep, of course) and I think they've got a ton of mileage out of him beng absolutely hilarious a lot of the time, with many solid jokes and lines, so @Kangdos is correct.

I do still agree with @MisogiKurakawa that Milhouse could've had had a bit more meat to his writing and served a better, stronger role in the narratives (including more focus episodes that didn't shift to be about another character), But yeah, him being Bart's dorky friend and sidekick I still think has been a fairly meaningful role from a comedic standpoint (and also been part of some nicely more or less dramatic material from time to time) and I'm content with what we've gotten in terms of that (again, aside from the degradation of his character as a creep with some weird kinks & an increasingly pathetic characterization).

But in the grand scheme of things, I don't think they had more plans for him than to be a fully comedic character so I understand why he's had little to no narrative importance, but yet I think he shouldn't have been as relatively downplayed as he has in later years, such as episodes now being more about Kirk & Luanne and Milhouse ending up as sort of an supporting character to them, so he could stand for being more prominent, both in terms of comedy and, if possible, in terms of narrative.

Also whilst I can't personally comment on the accuracy of the depiction of friendship between young boys for fairly obvious reasons I do think there is something to that. Young male friendships do often seem to be entirely shallow and non-sentimental from what I can tell (although again this is outside observation on my part), based on not much more than happening to sit next to each other in the classroom or something like that so the idea that Bart and Milhouse have a relatively insubtantial relationship beneath the surface does seem quite realistic to me. The show as a whole has also depicted male friendship as being essentially about nothing on other occassions as well so it would tie into that too.

I definitely think there is a realism to their friendship and how relaively superficial and basic it is so I like that too (and there may also be a point in what you said about the show's depiction of uncomplicated male friendship that is, in the grand scheme of things, about nothing... or at least very little that is actually meaningful), but I do still like the bits and pieces of depth, such as bart having shown to value the friendship fairly highly and as important to him, as seen in the likes of 'Bart's Friend Falls In Love' & 'Milhouse Doesn't Live Here Anymore', even though Milhouse, as we've seen, don't treat their friendship as deeply or seriously.

 

[Venomrabbit]

Thing about relationships is that sure, in real life or in universe being so similar is good. From a meta standpoint though, having two characters (especially in a comedy) be so alike that they're practically the same person is actually really bad chemistry. If you have two characters that are basically the same, or you have to split hairs to find an actual difference, then you actually have one character talking to themselves. Samey characters only really work when either
A) the friction or conflict comes from elsewhere
B) the shared personality traits are ones that naturally clash with themselves like egotism, kinda why villains can get away with this.

Take Bart and Lisa. What makes them work so well together? They're different. Different personalities, different hobbies, different goals in life... and yet still have a bond. Their differences mean they're fully interesting on their own and for that matter, have lots of fun ways to play off of each other and still have that closeness. Friction/conflict doesn't mean they have to hate each other at all. There's no way in H.F.I.L they'd be anywhere near as interesting together if Lisa was still her Tracy Ulman self.

Probably one reason why Milhouse has such a hard time being narratively important is just that he's not terribly distinct from Bart. Well, in competence maybe but not much in terms of character. Bart and incompetent-Bart is good for gags but feels like it doesn't go much further when most of their stories make Milhouse a tagalong, split them apart or have to bring in Martin and/or Nelson.

As for the relationship being such a dumpster fire (feels like we're really overlooking how bad Milhouse is in his, something the show is guilty of too) is just there's otherwise no teeth to it. Again they're not very distinct and if they're just going to be best friends, what are you gonna do with that? It's probably the big reason why they tried more with Milhouse and Lisa, they're actually different so more could be done... for better or worse.

 

[CousinMerl]

As for the relationship being such a dumpster fire (feels like we're really overlooking how bad Milhouse is in his, something the show is guilty of too) is just there's otherwise no teeth to it. Again they're not very distinct and if they're just going to be best friends, what are you gonna do with that? It's probably the big reason why they tried more with Milhouse and Lisa, they're actually different so more could be done... for better or worse.

I have not overlooked how Milhouse have been pretty badt too (I did wrote about his portrayal in 'Marge Be Not Proud' just the other day) so it is not only Bart whom has been in the wrong, but yeah, it's not a healthy dynamic from either direction, really.

And yes, they aren't terribly disctinct from one another, but I think there's still some key differences (Bart is the Alpha who take charge, Milhouse is the beta who follows, Bart is the "cool" and "aggressive" one", Milhouse is the dorkier and meeker one, etc.), but there's not really much that can be done with their friendshop in more of a meaty narrative sense, so testing out Milhouse & Lisa have maybe made some more sense, but then again, we've only really gotten to see Milhouse from his worse side around her with the lecherous creeping, etc.

Would be more interesting to have Lisa and Milhouse two just be friends and try write some some various plots around that (I do think Milhouse sometimes hanging out with Lisa has potential), but feels like way too late for that.

 

[I Love Lisa]

Interesting that you bring up the point of his Lisa obsession, given that goes back to my prior observation that it seems like the reason they jumped on that was because it provided a "solution" to his general lack of relevance outside of being disposable comic relief. Rather than being an almost entirely passive character only defined generally by his relationship with Bart, the Lisa thing allowed them to give Milhouse some kind of internal drive that made him more....malleable, I guess is the right term?

Ha ha well maybe it's not such a surprise that I'd bring up Lisa in some way really. It is an interesting idea that they pushed Milhouse's "Lisa fancier" angle just to give him another angle to work with and there might very well be something to that. I am suspicious though that the only real reason they ran with it like they did is just because they found the idea of the loser kid constantly trying to push himself on her funny.

Regardless, you are absolutely right that the times Lisa ends up essentially objectified as just "a girl for Milhouse to creep at" are awful though.

But in the grand scheme of things, I don't think they had more plans for him than to be a fully comedic character so I understand why he's had little to no narrative importance, but yet I think he shouldn't have been as relatively downplayed as he has in later years, such as episodes now being more about Kirk & Luanne and Milhouse ending up as sort of an supporting character to them, so he could stand for being more prominent, both in terms of comedy and, if possible, in terms of narrative.

I think the Kirk and Luanne thing is an interesting point actually. With both of his parents getting more development over the years that does give the writers more ways to use Milhouse himself by showing us more of his relationship with them. Could be an angle worth exploring and should at least be a much better development than him being a creep to poor Lisa!

I definitely think there is a realism to their friendship and how relaively superficial and basic it is so I like that too (and there may also be a point in what you said about the show's depiction of uncomplicated male friendship that is, in the grand scheme of things, about nothing... or at least very little that is actually meaningful), but I do still like the bits and pieces of depth, such as bart having shown to value the friendship fairly highly and as important to him, as seen in the likes of 'Bart's Friend Falls In Love' & 'Milhouse Doesn't Live Here Anymore', even though Milhouse, as we've seen, don't treat their friendship as deeply or seriously.

Yeah it is nice to see some depth every now and then even if I think that it's actually fairly clever how realistically shallow their friendship usually is and I do think Milhouse Doesn't Live Here Anymore is a good example of that. Maybe there's not all that much depth in how Bart and Milhouse think about each other since they are ten year old boys, but even so Bart does seem to genuinely value having him to hang out with (and I guess do boy stuff he can't really do with Lisa?) and it does feel natural that he'd be upset like he was when his buddy moved away. I do think there are times that Milhouse treats the friendship seriously as well, but that seems to mostly show itself as him wishing Bart would give him more respect like his screaming in Worst Episode Ever here.

I am curious now as to why the show does tend to show male friendships as often pretty shallow anyway? We've had plenty of conversations I can recall about the show's problems with depicting female friendships, but with a mostly male writers room, you'd think it'd be quite good at depicting men's social lives, so is that near what it's actually like...? I have a load of brothers so I've seen plenty of male friendships over the years, but I still feel I can't properly comment here so I genuinely am interested in what the guys here think about the show's depiction of male relationships?

 

[CousinMerl]

I think the Kirk and Luanne thing is an interesting point actually. With both of his parents getting more development over the years that does give the writers more ways to use Milhouse himself by showing us more of his relationship with them. Could be an angle worth exploring and should at least be a much better development than him being a creep to poor Lisa!

I'm definitely not against Kirk and Luanne being prominent and having some focal stories and development, but as I said, it has felt weird the writers never used their increasing prominence as a springing board for more Milhouse in terms of narrative (such as, yes, his relationship with his family), but alas, he's mainly just Bart's sidekick and a creep toward Lisa these days.

They should put more effort into utilizing him now that Kirk & Luanne are such relatively active characters (maybe also explore a little how he feel about them being so antagonistic with their victim complex personalities and whatnot? I really think their behavior would take a toll on his psyche, enough to not only be treated as cheap jokes: Thinking on that photo gag of Kirk and Luanne having an argument over a botched spaghetti dinner and Milhouse holding a table knife to his wrist. I don't remember which episode it was from but was a really dark, kinda tasteless gag making light of self-harm & do show how troubled the family is).

I do think there are times that Milhouse treats the friendship seriously as well, but that seems to mostly show itself as him wishing Bart would give him more respect like his screaming in Worst Episode Ever here.

Yeah, there have been some instances where Milhouse is serious about the friendship too (such as your example there), but those indeed often boil down to him wanting to be treated with more respect and at best as an equal, so not the same emotional degree as we've seen from Bart, whom more often has indeed shown to treat it as more important on a deeper personal level.

I am curious now as to why the show does tend to show male friendships as often pretty shallow anyway? We've had plenty of conversations I can recall about the show's problems with depicting female friendships, but with a mostly male writers room, you'd think it'd be quite good at depicting men's social lives, so is that near what it's actually like...? I have a load of brothers so I've seen plenty of male friendships over the years, but I still feel I can't properly comment here so I genuinely am interested in what the guys here think about the show's depiction of male relationships?

It is indeed curious on why the show often depicted it as fairly shallow and surface level, even though it is certainly realistic and a bit of "truth in television", but as apparent in real-life, not all male friendships are superficial but actually can have near or the same amount of depth and meaning as female friendships tend to get (as we've seen even on this show).

Heck, with how bromance relationships having been more normalized and popular (and show a less toxic side of friendships between men), it is odd the show never really touched upon that more deeper kind of connection in terms of friendship between guys (I guess the closest we have gotten is Homer, Moe, Lenny & Carl, but it is still not really that deep or nuanced in terms of a meaningful connection: I haven't seeb the most recent episode featuring the Moe's gang, 'Cremains Of The Day', yet so cannot comment on if they touch more on their friendship on any sort of deeper, meaningful level, but maybe it do add some new insight on their camraderie).

Maybe the writers do not see not as much comedic potential in any meaningful friendship between guys on the show, but I definitely think there can be a lot of fun and interesting stuff to be had from it if they tried.

 

[Nitsy]

Frankly, I think all of this supports my thesis that the writers are not too keen on friendship in general, and tend to portray friendships as shallow and hanging on by a thread and prefer their characters to be lonely or to have only one friend at most. Like, the first time I saw Pay Pal and Grampa admits he pays Lenny and Carl to be Homer's friends, I completely bought it because that absolutely fits the show's general attitude toward friendships. On a more meta level, perhaps the show isn't interested in going too deep into any secondary characters, so a deep dive into a friendship is unlikely to happen, especially if it takes too much focus away from any of the main characters and the interplay between them.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

Thing about relationships is that sure, in real life or in universe being so similar is good. From a meta standpoint though, having two characters (especially in a comedy) be so alike that they're practically the same person is actually really bad chemistry. If you have two characters that are basically the same, or you have to split hairs to find an actual difference, then you actually have one character talking to themselves. Samey characters only really work when either
A) the friction or conflict comes from elsewhere
B) the shared personality traits are ones that naturally clash with themselves like egotism, kinda why villains can get away with this.

Take Bart and Lisa. What makes them work so well together? They're different. Different personalities, different hobbies, different goals in life... and yet still have a bond. Their differences mean they're fully interesting on their own and for that matter, have lots of fun ways to play off of each other and still have that closeness. Friction/conflict doesn't mean they have to hate each other at all. There's no way in H.F.I.L they'd be anywhere near as interesting together if Lisa was still her Tracy Ulman self.

Probably one reason why Milhouse has such a hard time being narratively important is just that he's not terribly distinct from Bart. Well, in competence maybe but not much in terms of character. Bart and incompetent-Bart is good for gags but feels like it doesn't go much further when most of their stories make Milhouse a tagalong, split them apart or have to bring in Martin and/or Nelson.

As for the relationship being such a dumpster fire (feels like we're really overlooking how bad Milhouse is in his, something the show is guilty of too) is just there's otherwise no teeth to it. Again they're not very distinct and if they're just going to be best friends, what are you gonna do with that? It's probably the big reason why they tried more with Milhouse and Lisa, they're actually different so more could be done... for better or worse.

Yep, agree with this. This is a recurrent issue post-classic whenever the show tries to do stories on Moe's Bros (guess we can thank Cremains of the Day for that name) - Homer and Moe get basically all the actually significant characterization, while Lenny and Carl are just kinda....there, providing occasional funny banter without really doing much of anything. The show is essentially forcing itself to try and find reasons to use these characters even when it's fairly apparent it has no idea what to do, which doesn't speak very well on the quality of the writing on display.

On the subject of Milhouse, though, that feels a little more along the lines of the classic writers just not knowing what to do with him, rather than intentionally keeping him "underdeveloped". I alluded to this way back in the original post, but his parents' divorce would've been a pretty perfect time to flesh out Milhouse as a person and see how such a dramatic shift in his life would affect his relationship with Bart, but it just....doesn't - even the scenes of him in-story are just the remnants of a dropped B-Plot where Bart conspired to try and get his own parents to break up under the reasoning that he'd get more attention from people that way (I think we dodged a bullet there). There are a lot of alluded to angles and ideas that could've worked to expanding him, but the show just didn't commit to even the basic one of expanding Bart's friend group, despite the Bart/Milhouse/Nelson/Martin quartet being something with clear potential.

 

[MaryWrite]

I am curious now as to why the show does tend to show male friendships as often pretty shallow anyway? We've had plenty of conversations I can recall about the show's problems with depicting female friendships, but with a mostly male writers room, you'd think it'd be quite good at depicting men's social lives, so is that near what it's actually like...? I have a load of brothers so I've seen plenty of male friendships over the years, but I still feel I can't properly comment here so I genuinely am interested in what the guys here think about the show's depiction of male relationships?

That reminds me of another one timer, Donny!

I thought him and Bart had a pretty friendship, even if it only lasted for 22 minutes. I kinda get the feeling and imagine him not just being a good friend, but almost a surrogate brother or brother in arms, idk how you say it. I think he could've been the most positive male friend for Bart and another intresteing side character.

And I like the small description we know about him, an orphan from Shelbyville who is like Bart, with some more baggage hidden underneath and something more.

I'll have to put on my analysis hat on later to disect what type of guy we're dealing with. lol

 

[Venomrabbit]

Yeah strange thing about A Milhouse Divided is how it did much more for Luanne and Kirk than anyone else. Maybe we coulda seen Milhouse inspired to reinvent himself ala Luanne... and probably mess it up.

Though judging from S1-2, he wasn't really meant for the big leagues. I kinda wonder if he was actually meant to fill the spot left by Lisa when she got reinvented for the show, even. Or an easter egg. I'm still not 100% sure on the Dante's Inferno thing but if that's the case, it'd explain how Richard somehow has so little even compared to Lewis. Might've been that Lewis and Richard were meant to be it, then when Milhouse was salvaged they just put him over Richard because they were both yellow and... the show did like pairing up yellow and black characters. Like Lenny and Carl. There's also Lisa and Janey, Eddie and Lou, aforementioned Milhouse and Lewis.

I find the whole Milhouse/Lisa deal kinda interesting too. Mainly since it was probably also an attempt at giving him some definition wholly apart from Bart... thing is it was too laser-focused on Lisa and nobody else. As soon as Selman decided he wasn't interested in that business, a big part of Milhouse gets tossed aside. Probably one reason he's seen a lot less use lately. Mighta been more cathartic to see him also try and pull the same thing on other girls that don't care to be nice to him at all... or in some cases even pretend to play along to use him for their amusement or gain. Either way, then at least the joke would be on him.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

Yeah strange thing about A Milhouse Divided is how it did much more for Luanne and Kirk than anyone else. Maybe we coulda seen Milhouse inspired to reinvent himself ala Luanne... and probably mess it up.

Well, with A Milhouse Divided, it's worth remembering that the goal wasn't on developing Milhouse, but on "Let's do an episode commenting on the rising divorce rate". They were just "lucky" in the sense that Kirk and Luanne fit the very specific niche of being technically recurrent characters with established voices and designs without real, defined personalities (what we see of them beforehand is almost entirely incongruent with what the episode made them), and whom Homer then would have relative reason to fixate on their divorce. Had that not been the case, I imagine that it would've just been new characters to fit the narrative role; as with Nelson in Lisa's Date with Density, it's a decision made out of convenience (and probably budget) more than it is artistic reasoning, and yet the show was then just kinda stuck with afterwards. I don't even think their divorce was referenced for the remainder of S8?

I find the whole Milhouse/Lisa deal kinda interesting too. Mainly since it was probably also an attempt at giving him some definition wholly apart from Bart... thing is it was too laser-focused on Lisa and nobody else. As soon as Selman decided he wasn't interested in that business, a big part of Milhouse gets tossed aside. Probably one reason he's seen a lot less use lately. Mighta been more cathartic to see him also try and pull the same thing on other girls that don't care to be nice to him at all... or in some cases even pretend to play along to use him for their amusement or gain. Either way, then at least the joke would be on him.

Making Milhouse generally horrible around girls actually wouldn't have been that terrible a concept, and would've at least matched up with the strong implication in Bart's Friend Falls in Love that he was entering his hormonal stage before Bart had. But of course, this is kinda the problem with Lisa being the only remotely signifigant female character in the series on the kids' side. Had the show actually committed to developing the cast properly (and not relegated the only developed ones to guest voices), a joke like this one you posted would've been actually possible.


(Incidentally, the idea of Jessica fake-dating Milhouse just to see Bart's reaction would've been hilarious)

 

[Venomrabbit]

I don't think any of the changes the show makes gets referenced that much til the next season. If it's anything like with S1 the scripts may not be done totally in order so it might take a bit for changes to take effect... I might be wrong there though, tired so memory is spottier than usual.

 

[GlitterCat]

I wish I had some of the comics, they seem really well done and much more likely to revisit guest characters. Milhouse rejected by every girl is funnier than Milhouse rejected by Lisa alone.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

I wish I had some of the comics, they seem really well done and much more likely to revisit guest characters. Milhouse rejected by every girl is funnier than Milhouse rejected by Lisa alone.

They are....but they come with the asterix of having pretty shaky writing, bizarre concepts, and are if anything even more dependent on the whole "iconography" thing.

Like, you know how the show steadily became convinced that "Tries to murder Bart" was the entire sum total of Bob's character? Well, the comics have that....every 10-20 issues or so. It becomes pretty frustrating to read.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

Returning to the subjects of Lisa's friends and gender politics, Lard of the Dance also takes on a curious subtext when you consider who wrote it.



Beyond being arguably the last "classic" Lisa story should one count the 5F production block (I kinda do, kinda don't), the episode is noteworthy for being the first and to this day very few Lisa plots written by a woman - specifically Conan O'Brien's sister Jane, who worked as an assistant producer in S6 and story editor in S9. This sticks out to me because of one of the reasons why the episode is conspicuous: Lisa has a friend group. Janey, Allison, and the twins are all portrayed not as just girls Lisa knows, but ones whom she actively hangs out with and refers to as her friends, enough so that she's visibly broken up about them deciding to hang out with the cool new girl. And this isn't something drawn attention to at all, or even noted as "unusual", instead, they just act like she's always had them.

And that made me wonder....is Lisa's general friendlessness really just down to the "boy's club" mentality of the writers room (which has been fairly well-documented, to my understanding) making them uncomfortable writing female friendships? Because there is a pretty consistent trend of how it was the female creatives or influences who did at least some of the actually good character work with female characters in the classic series. It's not a coincidence I feel that Scenes from a Class Struggle in Springfield, arguably the classic story most willing to portray Marge in a "flawed" light, was the sole one with both a female writer and director, or how both Lisa's Rival and Lisa on Ice were heavily influenced by Scully's own feelings regarding his daughters, to where Allison was even named after one of them. So where does the specter of artistic intent lie, and where does the own limited perspective of the writing staff take over, especially as time passed and they all aged?

Something to ponder, at least.

 

[I Love Lisa]

I'm definitely not against Kirk and Luanne being prominent and having some focal stories and development, but as I said, it has felt weird the writers never used their increasing prominence as a springing board for more Milhouse in terms of narrative (such as, yes, his relationship with his family), but alas, he's mainly just Bart's sidekick and a creep toward Lisa these days.

They should put more effort into utilizing him now that Kirk & Luanne are such relatively active characters (maybe also explore a little how he feel about them being so antagonistic with their victim complex personalities and whatnot? I really think their behavior would take a toll on his psyche, enough to not only be treated as cheap jokes: Thinking on that photo gag of Kirk and Luanne having an argument over a botched spaghetti dinner and Milhouse holding a table knife to his wrist. I don't remember which episode it was from but was a really dark, kinda tasteless gag making light of self-harm & do show how troubled the family is).

Oh yikes I don't remember that self-harm "gag" at all for some reason, but that really is tasteless. They definitely could do more with how Milhouse copes with being the son of two difficult, antagonistic people than stuff like that! I do like how Kirk and Luanne have been developed more, but like you said it does seem a bit odd that Milhouse just doesn't seem to be involved much in his parents' increased prominence.

It is indeed curious on why the show often depicted it as fairly shallow and surface level, even though it is certainly realistic and a bit of "truth in television", but as apparent in real-life, not all male friendships are superficial but actually can have near or the same amount of depth and meaning as female friendships tend to get (as we've seen even on this show).

Heck, with how bromance relationships having been more normalized and popular (and show a less toxic side of friendships between men), it is odd the show never really touched upon that more deeper kind of connection in terms of friendship between guys (I guess the closest we have gotten is Homer, Moe, Lenny & Carl, but it is still not really that deep or nuanced in terms of a meaningful connection: I haven't seeb the most recent episode featuring the Moe's gang, 'Cremains Of The Day', yet so cannot comment on if they touch more on their friendship on any sort of deeper, meaningful level, but maybe it do add some new insight on their camraderie).

Maybe the writers do not see not as much comedic potential in any meaningful friendship between guys on the show, but I definitely think there can be a lot of fun and interesting stuff to be had from it if they tried.

All I can really say is when I hear men talking to each other it does often seem to be about sports or TV picture quality or something like that, so maybe there is a bit of "truth in television" here, but I know there must be a lot more to male friendship than that! I guess maybe if we're thinking in purely comedic terms though it might make some sense to exaggerate the surface level stereotype of male relationships for comic effect?

I've not seen Cremains of the Day either (it's not avaiable in the UK yet - the newest episode we've got is Lisa Gets an F1), but yeah the "Moe's gang" is the closest thing we've got to a consistent depiction of friend group on the show (male or female actually), but they mostly do just... hang out at Moe's. I will say I did like the exploration of it in The Saga of Carl though where Carl misunderstood the fact that they only do "guy stuff" as meaning that they weren't real friends before realising that they do all that stuff because they're good friends. Again I can't really comment on how realistic it actually is, but it felt like it was to me and it felt quite positive as well with them all showing how much they mean to each other beneath all the surface level "guy stuff" so it does show there is potential with the concept I think.

I find the whole Milhouse/Lisa deal kinda interesting too. Mainly since it was probably also an attempt at giving him some definition wholly apart from Bart... thing is it was too laser-focused on Lisa and nobody else. As soon as Selman decided he wasn't interested in that business, a big part of Milhouse gets tossed aside. Probably one reason he's seen a lot less use lately. Mighta been more cathartic to see him also try and pull the same thing on other girls that don't care to be nice to him at all... or in some cases even pretend to play along to use him for their amusement or gain. Either way, then at least the joke would be on him.

Ooh I think you're really on to something with this actually. I think the idea of Milhouse being hopeless with girls can be funny in theory since he's already hopeless with everything else (and there are some times - like in Lisa's Date With Density - that his Lisa thing does work for laughs) and it would tie in with what @MisogiKurakawa mentioned before about Bart's Friend Falls in Love suggesting that his hormones are starting to kick in earlier than Bart's, but it's the fact that he's singly fixated on Lisa that makes it creepy. Obsession with one particular girl that just gets ramped up more and more over time is straight up stalking and that just makes me queasy, but a guy who keeps striking out in love in general in a sadsack sort of way could be amusing and perhaps even sympathetic (alhtough we're probably far too far gone with Milhouse for sympathy in this area).

It actually gives me an idea for a potential episode where he does something that really breaks Lisa's patience with him and she directly calls him out for his stalkerish ways. That could lead him to some soul-searching where he tries to prove he's not a creep and ends up just... creeping out all the other girls which makes him finally realise just how he's been acting and resolves to try and improve. That could be a way for him and Lisa to reconcile and potentially settle as friends (or at least amicable acquaintances through Bart) and draw a line under the whole thing. I don't know maybe a bit too on the nose to actually work as a plot, but I do think that the show can't really move on from the uncomfortableness of Milhouse's Lisa infatuation if it never actually adresses it or acknowledges that it's actually creepy and to my recollection it never has?