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  1. #1
    . TheForbiddenDonut's Avatar
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    DCAU Discussion Thread

    Yeah, this is surprising. Me in all my superhero fanaticism making a DC Animation thread.

    But anyway, I'll just throw this out there. Fans of Batman:TAS, Superman:TAS, Batman Beyond, Justice League, or even Teen Titans, in all their glory, here's the place to discuss them from here on out. In my honest opinion, the Drunken Clam too much concerns itself with the comedy end of the cartoon spectrum and never ventures further than that. So for the few of you who care, here's...The DC Animated Universe Discussion Thread!

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    don't quite cover all CousinMerl's Avatar
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    I'll join the discussion here, since im a big DCAU fan;

    I just finished the last season of Justice League Unlimited (Last Week), and it surely was not a disappointment, most of the episodes (If not all) was really great in their own way, and the little twists here and there was nice additions, one of the most surprising and chocking moments was when Grodd in his last confrontation with Luthor was...well...(I think you know what moment referring to Forbidden Donut), Im not gonna post any spoilers for those who haven't seen it.

    Im thinkin about watching some Batman TAS again, Im thinking of starting with On Leather Wings, I have always liked Man-Bat and that episode is just beautifully animated.
    Last edited by CousinMerl; 04-12-2010 at 06:32 AM.

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    . TheForbiddenDonut's Avatar
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    Yes, a fellow fan! :silly:

    Well, on the last season of JLU, I think it may very well have been the worst season, but it definitely was great stuff. Luthor and Grodd were at their best, the Legion of Doom angle was very neat especially if you've seen Superfriends, it's got some of the funniest episodes of the DCAU ('the Great Brain Robbery'), and the ending is one of the most spectacular action-fests ever. So yeah, it's great stuff.

    As for B:TAS, I actually spent the past six days watching the entire series in order, from 'On Leather Wings' to 'Batgirl Returns' at an average of 15 episodes per day (yeah, I have no life). 'On Leather Wings' is certainly one of the highlights of the series; the animation is easily the best Spectrum did for the show, and the Man-Bat transformation is surprisingly freakish for a kid's show.

    Since I'm tackling the DCAU in order, I'm now watching the B:TAS movies (Mask of the Phantasm and Sub-Zero), and it's very interesting watching how the universe grew and expanded.

    So yeah, thanks for the response, Numberzone.

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    don't quite cover all CousinMerl's Avatar
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    Sorry, I haven't seen superfriends, but I can imagine how that show was when you mention the Great Brain Robbery (It was an funny episode)

    I cant say that S3 was the worst JLU season of them all (I probaly say this because I havent seen all the Justice League Episodes), but none of the ones that I have seen was bad. One of the more memorable parts from the season was the one centered on the villains in the Legion Of Doom, when they started fighting each other, that was a long and remarkable battle.

    (At one point I started to wonder if some of the powerful blasts would shatter the hull of the spaceship base so they all would end up being sucked into space :-O , but luckily none of that happened)

    Also, I have almost seen all the episodes from Batman Beyond, only some (about six or seven I think) from season 2 are missing from my watched list, among them Armory, Final Cut and that first Zeta episode.

    Anyway, Which are your top five episodes and villains from Batman TAS?
    Last edited by CousinMerl; 04-12-2010 at 06:33 AM.

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    Yeah, Superfriends was pretty much cheesy blandness with glaring story flaws and animation errors in which the characters weren't even allowed to throw a punch. What's cool about the third season is that it took the Legion of Doom and made them completely badass as opposed to lame.

    I definitely love the Legion brawl in 'Alive!' There's not much cooler than about fifty or so super-villains locked in combat for an entire episode.

    The episodes you mentioned from Batman Beyond aren't too special; 'Armory' is pretty good, 'Final Cut' is pretty generic, and 'Zeta' is a tad cliched (it's just a story about a robot trying to discover human emotions; it's been done several times before).

    My favorite episodes from B:TAS? Well, my A+'s include:

    Two-Face pt 1
    Heart of Ice
    Beware the Gray Ghost
    Perchance to Dream
    The Laughing Fish
    The Man Who Killed Batman
    Read My Lips
    A Bullet for Bullock
    Harlequinade
    Second Chance
    Harley's Holiday

    The ones in bold are probably my top five.

    As for villains, I'll go with Joker, Two-Face, Clay-Face, Mr. Freeze, and the Ventriloquist/Scarface.

    Now, what do you think of Superman: The Animated Series? If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it.
    Last edited by TheForbiddenDonut; 07-24-2007 at 03:30 PM.

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    don't quite cover all CousinMerl's Avatar
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    I have seen a few episodes from Superman TAS, but not many, the only ones I know that I have seen are A Little Piece Of Home, Livewire, Monkey Fun and World's Finest Part 1 to 3.
    I shall see if I can get my eyes on some more episodes of the show.

    Talking about Batman TAS villains, I like several, including Clayface, Man-Bat, Riddler, Mr. Freeze and Harley Quinn. I don't really like that they made Killer Croc stupid, but he's also good villain.

    But I think my favorite has to be the Scarecrow. He makes a formidable threat to Bats, even though he is not pysically strong. So far I don't care much about his looks in The New Batman Adventures (His best look was introduced in Fear Of Victory, the one with the straw hair and crazy teeth).

    Do you watch Teen Titans much?, I have started watching it some time ago (I hasn't seen much episodes, about six or seven), and it's actually pretty funny, even though it has serious moments, which is needed.

    (I would also comment that the fourth season of the modern The Batman is not bad at all, even though the show had many haters, which many of has begun to like the fourth season. I liked it from the beginning since I accepted it (Probably because back then I wasn't much of a BTAS fan, and it has grown better and better, I admit it had some weaker episodes and some greater); it is a lot better than the first three seasons, but BTAS is still the best and most perfected animation series about Batman.)
    Last edited by CousinMerl; 04-12-2010 at 06:36 AM.

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    Master of Time and Space NegaDuck's Avatar
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    I'm a huge DCAU fan.

    I actually haven't seen it all (I own all of it, but just haven't watched half of Batman Beyond)...

    I thought Justice League/Unlimited was the best of it (Followed very closely by Batman), but I was kind of disappointed by a few loose ends left dangling... What about Isley (If that's his name... The Army guy who used the steroid-stuff on himself and kicked the shit out of a bunch of leaguers? He just runs off angrily at the end of his episode and that's it, no closure or anything....)? I'd say that's a fairly large threat just lingering there, and nobody does anything about it.

    But... Yeah. The Cadmus arc was mind-blowingly good.

    One of these days I'm gonna sit down and watch the entire DCAU in order, from "On Leather Wings" to "Destroyer".

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    . TheForbiddenDonut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NumberZone
    I have seen a few episodes from Superman TAS, but not many, the only ones I know that I have seen are A Little Piece Of Home, Livewire and Monkey Fun and World's Finest Part 1 to 3.
    I shall see if I can get my eyes on some more episodes of the show.
    I love 'A Little Piece of Homer' and 'World's Finest' is mind blowing. 'Monkey Fun' and 'Livewire' were two of the weaker episodes, I thought. Still, it's a very excellent show.
    Quote Originally Posted by NumberZone
    Talking about Batman TAS villains, I like several, including Clayface, Man-Bat, Riddler, Mr. Freeze and Harley Quinn. I don't really like that they made Killer Croc stupid, but he's also good villain.
    I like that in Croc's first episode, he was pretty intelligent, but then just sort of declined from there. At least in 'Bane' he got the mob-boss treatment.
    Quote Originally Posted by NumberZone
    But my big favorite has to be The Scarecrow, he who has the costume, the voice, the personality and the fear gas. He makes a formidable threat to Bats, even though he is not pysically strong. So far I don't care much about his looks in The New Batman Adventures (His best look was introduced in Fear Of Victory, the one with the straw hair and crazy teeth), what do you think of the Scarecrow?
    I love the Scarecrow, and I love both his classic B:TAS look and the one introduced in volume four. He's a favorite, but he's only had a few good episodes, 'Fear of Victory' and 'Never Fear' being the best. I still think that nobody can beat the Joker when it comes to villainy.
    Quote Originally Posted by NumberZone
    Do you watch Teen Titans much?, I have started watching it some time ago (I hasn't seen much episodes, about six or seven), and it's actually pretty funny, even though it has serious moments, which is needed.
    I love the Teen Titans. It's very very lighthearted and very very nonsensical, but it works so well that way. I currently have the first two seasons and am pushing for the third.
    Quote Originally Posted by NumberZone
    (I would also comment that the fourth season of the modern The Batman is not bad at all, even though the show had many haters, which many of has begun to like the fourth season. I liked it from the beginning since I accepted it (Probaly because I then wasn't much of a BTAS fan, and it has grown better and better, I admit it had some weaker episodes and some greater, I also want ot comment that Firefly's new look is perfect. I recommend the fourth season to you if you haven't seen it, it is MUCH better than the first three seasons; the show is good in whole, but BTAS is still the very best and most perfect Batman cartoon)
    Yeah, volume four is definitely more consistent than the original, but I still like the original better, simply because it's more nostalgic and the visuals looked a lot better. As well-written as volume four was, there was a lack of psychologically stimulating episodes and the show leaned more toward standard super-villainy with none of the good character explorations of the original.
    Quote Originally Posted by NumberZone
    Finally, I must say the The Batman has my favorite portrayal of Killer Croc; he is strong, green, intelligent (As he should be) and more looks like a crocodile, His cajun style accent voice, performed by Ron Perlman, is one of the best aspects of him.
    Meh, I like his design, but his motivation was pretty unfounded. I would probably prefer him to his volume four portrayal, but I think the original will always be the best.
    Quote Originally Posted by NegaDuck
    I'm a huge DCAU fan.

    I actually haven't seen it all (I own all of it, but just haven't watched half of Batman Beyond)...

    I thought Justice League/Unlimited was the best of it (Followed very closely by Batman), but I was kind of disappointed by a few loose ends left dangling... What about Isley (If that's his name... The Army guy who used the steroid-stuff on himself and kicked the shit out of a bunch of leaguers? He just runs off angrily at the end of his episode and that's it, no closure or anything....)? I'd say that's a fairly large threat just lingering there, and nobody does anything about it.

    But... Yeah. The Cadmus arc was mind-blowingly good.

    One of these days I'm gonna sit down and watch the entire DCAU in order, from "On Leather Wings" to "Destroyer".
    My order for best to worst DCAU shows goes: B:TAS, S:TAS, TNBA, JLU, JL, and then BB coming in last (it's still a good show, just can't surpass the other five). I'm still thinking maybe my love for B:TAS is biased, and maybe TNBA (that's 'The New Batman Adventures' or volume four of the series, for those who don't know) should be ranked a bit higher, but that's a pretty decent list there.

    Eiling was the name of the super-human from 'Patriot Act', and yeah, I wasn't such a fan of the episode. The Cadmus arc was so monumental that I feel it shouldn't have been revisited in season three. And yeah, the Cadmus arc is perhaps the best thing the DCAU has ever done.

    I just finished 'Sub-Zero' in my quest to watch the DCAU from start to finish. Now starting up volume one of 'Superman'.

  9. #9
    Profound Sadness Kiyosuki's Avatar
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    I don't care what anyone says I loved Batman Beyond.

    When watched with Return of the Joker, and finally the JLU epilogue episode, its a great little what-if story.  Although I kind of wish they hadn't done the next-gen Batman thing with Terry in the JSU ep. I think it was much more powerful when he was just his spiritual successor. Like Batman wasn't just a gene thing, but an eternal concept. 

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    Come back, Zinc!! Sniper Squirrel's Avatar
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    I use to watch B:TAS all the time after school, I was never a huge fan of Superman:TAS, I saw a handful of superfriends episodes when they used to show them on CN, as for JLU and Teen Titans, I think I've only seen one or 2 episodes of each
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    . TheForbiddenDonut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiyosuki
     Although I kind of wish they hadn't done the next-gen Batman thing with Terry in the JSU ep. I think it was much more powerful when he was just his spiritual successor. Like Batman wasn't just a gene thing, but an eternal concept. 
    Ooh, one of the most common topics of controversy. Here's what I have to say on the matter:
     
    'Epilogue' works because it's open-ended. It introduces the idea of Terry as Bruce's son, yes, but it's only in Amanda Waller's opinion that genes are what makes a Batman, but the episode never takes a definitive stand. I mean, on the one hand Waller thinks Batman lies in genetics, but then again she is quick to point out that Terry has his flaws completely separate from Bruce's. I think it's completely up to the viewer whether the mantle of Batman is genetic or spiritual/eternal. And it's also interesting to think what Terry's kinship to Bruce means for Bruce Wayne himself, instead of Terry. So much of the DCAU deals with Bruce's sacrificing love and family for duty, so having Terry be his son makes Bruce's journey through the DCAU more fulfilling for him. It gives him a happy ending. What even adds to it is that Bruce only received a son because of actions that he personally inspired. Not to mention the fact that Bruce's father represents Bruce's ideal of perfection, so the fact that Bruce is granted a son means that Bruce has now fully claimed his father's role in another person's life. And so on and so on. So I obviously really love the episode. 

    For more on this exciting episode, I recommend this guy's review.

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    don't quite cover all CousinMerl's Avatar
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    Okay, I was too fast to write that The Batman had my favorite Killer Croc design. In fact, I don't really know what show had the best Killer Croc design, I like all of them, they are all great in their own unique way.

    Forbidden Donut, I also want to note that I hasn't seen Volumer 4 (Is that TNBA?), and that shows Killer Croc sounds interesting, can you tell me if he's smarter there?, like in BTAS Vendetta episode, I know he was pretty intelligent. His design in Batman TAS was very good, but again, the only thing I dislike is that they made his intelligence lower.

    Talking about the animated Batman Movies, I have seen some of them; Mask of The Phantasm, Mystery Of The Batwoman and Return Of The Joker (I must say that the Jokerz Gang Is awesome)

    You were also talking about the JLU episode Epilogue, that was an great and interesting episode. Oh, and a question for you: What was the name of that villain that Batman defeated in the beginning of Shadow Of The Hawk? (you know the giant guy in white armor)

    (It was also pretty strange that you listed the two best episodes containing the Joker according to me (The Lauging Fish and The Man Who Killed Batman) in your favorite episode list)
    Last edited by CousinMerl; 07-23-2007 at 01:53 AM.

  13. #13
    . TheForbiddenDonut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NumberZone
    Okay, I was too fast to write that The Batman had my favorite Killer Croc design. In fact, I don't really know what show had the best Killer Croc design, I like all of them, they are all great in their own unique way.

    Forbidden Donut, I also want to note that I hasn't seen Volumer 4 (Is that TNBA?), and that shows Killer Croc sounds interesting, can you tell me if he's smarter there?, like in BTAS Vendetta episode, I know he was pretty intelligent. His design in Batman TAS was very good, but again, the only thing I dislike is that they made his intelligence lower.
    Well, Volume Four's Killer Croc, and yes, Volume Four refers to TNBA, is designed just like a generic monster, and his voice actor is a lot worse. He was only in one episode, and he was teamed up with Baby-Doll, and he really wasn't very intelligent or as cool as the original.
    Quote Originally Posted by NumberZone
    Talking about the animated Batman Movies, I have seen some of them; Mask of The Phantasm, Mystery Of The Batwoman and Return Of The Joker (I must say that the Jokerz Gang Is awesome)
    I love the Jokerz Gang. 'Return of the Joker' is easily the best of the movies, with some of the greatest animation in the DCAU. The only one it appears you haven't seen is 'Sub-Zero', which is essential to understanding Mr. Freeze's progression throughout the history of the DCAU.
    Quote Originally Posted by NumberZone
    You were also talking about the JLU episode Epilogue, that was an great and interesting episode. Oh, and a question for you: What was the name of that villain that Batman defeated in the beginning of Shadow Of The Hawk? (you know the giant guy in white armor)
    I'm afraid I don't know the answer, seeing as how I've only seen the episode once. I'll try to get back to you on that after I watch it again.
    Quote Originally Posted by NumberZone
    (It was also pretty strange that you listed the two best episodes containing the Joker according to me (The Lauging Fish and The Man Who Killed Batman) in your favorite episode list)
    'The Laughing Fish' and 'The Man Who Killed Batman' are most certainly the best Joker episodes; interesting that you agree.

    Right now, I just started 'Stolen Memories' on S:TAS. Excellent episode.

  14. #14
    don't quite cover all CousinMerl's Avatar
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    Oh, to bad that Killer Croc's apperance in TNBA isn't that good.

    I also forgot to mention that I have seen Subzero ;-/ , that is one of the better animated Bat-films out there. And yes, Return Of The Joker is one great movie, one of my favorite scenes is the flashback part, which I think you like too.

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    . TheForbiddenDonut's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, the flashback is every fan's favorite scene from the movie. If you listen to the commentary, Paul Dini does a great job with explaining the psychology behind the scene.

    You've scene the uncut version, right?

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    Profound Sadness Kiyosuki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForbiddenDonut
    Ooh, one of the most common topics of controversy. Here's what I have to say on the matter:
     
    'Epilogue' works because it's open-ended. It introduces the idea of Terry as Bruce's son, yes, but it's only in Amanda Waller's opinion that genes are what makes a Batman, but the episode never takes a definitive stand. I mean, on the one hand Waller thinks Batman lies in genetics, but then again she is quick to point out that Terry has his flaws completely separate from Bruce's. I think it's completely up to the viewer whether the mantle of Batman is genetic or spiritual/eternal. And it's also interesting to think what Terry's kinship to Bruce means for Bruce Wayne himself, instead of Terry. So much of the DCAU deals with Bruce's sacrificing love and family for duty, so having Terry be his son makes Bruce's journey through the DCAU more fulfilling for him. It gives him a happy ending. What even adds to it is that Bruce only received a son because of actions that he personally inspired. Not to mention the fact that Bruce's father represents Bruce's ideal of perfection, so the fact that Bruce is granted a son means that Bruce has now fully claimed his father's role in another person's life. And so on and so on. So I obviously really love the episode. 

    For more on this exciting episode, I recommend this guy's review.
    Yeah I know about how they made it still kind of vague, but it still takes away a lot mystery behind it. You can say that Terry became Batman out of his own free will despite the fact he's Bruce's artificial son yeah, but I dunno it sorta takes a degree of that almost darkly etherial element that makes the Batman more than just a guy with a lot of money and tools. To have Terry just be some random element of Gotham, or humanity in general, that took it upon himself to take the mantle of Batman even after Bruce himself had finally laid down the cause is just cool. Like he wasn't even raised and formally trained like the Robins or Batgirl, he was literally a street punk that saw justice. It says that Batman is more than just a mantle to pass down, that its not so much the name, the tools, and the suit that make Terry the true worthy successor to the big name, its the fact that if Batman is still needed than humanity itself will make a new Batman. As long as he's needed he'll in a way always be around.

    You can take the artificial baby thing in a similar way but its a little more mundane. I thought about it and maybe the fact that he didn't know about any of this and joined in his own free will could say that Batman's essense goes beyond mere technological control, that even with all their preparation they couldn't factor in certain human elements. It could have been worse but still, I can't help but think of that as more of a technicality than just what it was, someone rising up and taking Batman from Bruce's hands themselves. So not even technology, or Bruce himself could control the symbol of Batman anymore. It just came out of nowhere. Plus now no matter what, Terry is still half Bruce. There's something much cooler about the idea of just a normal human being taking the mantle.

  17. #17
    . TheForbiddenDonut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiyosuki
    Yeah I know about how they made it still kind of vague, but it still takes away a lot mystery behind it. You can say that Terry became Batman out of his own free will despite the fact he's Bruce's artificial son yeah, but I dunno it sorta takes a degree of that almost darkly etherial element that makes the Batman more than just a guy with a lot of money and tools. To have Terry just be some random element of Gotham, or humanity in general, that took it upon himself to take the mantle of Batman even after Bruce himself had finally laid down the cause is just cool. Like he wasn't even raised and formally trained like the Robins or Batgirl, he was literally a street punk that saw justice. It says that Batman is more than just a mantle to pass down, that its not so much the name, the tools, and the suit that make Terry the true worthy successor to the big name, its the fact that if Batman is still needed than humanity itself will make a new Batman. As long as he's needed he'll in a way always be around.

    You can take the artificial baby thing in a similar way but its a little more mundane. I thought about it and maybe the fact that he didn't know about any of this and joined in his own free will could say that Batman's essense goes beyond mere technological control, that even with all their preparation they couldn't factor in certain human elements. It could have been worse but still, I can't help but think of that as more of a technicality than just what it was, someone rising up and taking Batman from Bruce's hands themselves. So not even technology, or Bruce himself could control the symbol of Batman anymore. It just came out of nowhere. Plus now no matter what, Terry is still half Bruce. There's something much cooler about the idea of just a normal human being taking the mantle.
    Well, I sort of understand, but I terribly disagree. No matter your complaints, the fact that Terry is Bruce's son doesn't really contradict any of the points you made in your first paragraph concerning how awesome an idea it was that some random person could just adopt the mantle: son or no son, he was a random street punk who became Batman through his own free will. Second, you clearly imply at the end of the second paragraph that Terry is not a normal human being, as if his genetic ties make him some superhuman or something, which simply isn't true. But yeah, that still doesn't refute your claim that the mysterious element of Batman is lost in the new origin story. In an attempt to respond to that part of your argument, I shamelessly borrow from the review I linked to earlier:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Allman
    To make the mantle transferable--like a piece of property--would keep the character alive but also diminish its originator, Bruce Wayne. To make it the man would give Wayne an unimpeachable claim to an enviable dignity but also make the character less than universal. By making Terry into a near-but-not-quite clone of Wayne, “Epilogue” is able, astonishingly, to reconcile the two. The title is transferred to a worthy successor, one whose life echoes but does not recapitulate Wayne’s own. But Wayne himself, through no selfish effort of his own, is in some sense able to live on. Those who respect the man and those who respect the mask can thus both be satisfied.
    So yeah, I may not have written that, but I couldn't have said it better.

    And also, as I said before, the choice to make Terry Bruce's son means the ultimate fulfillment to Bruce's life.
    Last edited by TheForbiddenDonut; 07-23-2007 at 05:38 PM.

  18. #18
    don't quite cover all CousinMerl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForbiddenDonut
    Oh yeah, the flashback is every fan's favorite scene from the movie. If you listen to the commentary, Paul Dini does a great job with explaining the psychology behind the scene.

    You've scene the uncut version, right?
    I have seen it both cut and uncut and both were great, but I think I prefer the uncut with a margin.

  19. #19
    bury my heart in Tijuana Vic's Avatar
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    I'm a huge fan of TAS. It was the thing to watch when I was a kid, and I always loved the dark and atypical stories they told. As a kid I couldn't appreciate how unique it was, but these days I do. I also have to appreciate BB for continuing the series but the original Batman is still tops over the new guy.

    While on the subject of Batman, I caught one of the newer episodes of the new Batman series. The first few that I saw at the beginning sucked wobbles, but this new one wasn't half bad. Has this series actually gotten good since the start?

    Never watched any of the others such as JL. Just too bright for me I guess.

    EDIT: Bah, you bastards got me started! I also thank TAS for introducing me to the Jonah Hex character. One of the most awesome fuckin' Western characters ever, and worthy of more popularity than he currently has.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SubSane
    I'm a huge fan of TAS. It was the thing to watch when I was a kid, and I always loved the dark and atypical stories they told. As a kid I couldn't appreciate how unique it was, but these days I do. I also have to appreciate BB for continuing the series but the original Batman is still tops over the new guy.
    Yeah, I feel really lucky to have been obsessed with perhaps the greatest and most revolutionary superhero cartoon of all time as a kid. Back then I loved it for Batman fighting the bad guys, but now I can appreciate it for its superb noir style, psychological character studies, and top-of-the-line voice acting.
    Quote Originally Posted by SubSane
    While on the subject of Batman, I caught one of the newer episodes of the new Batman series. The first few that I saw at the beginning sucked wobbles, but this new one wasn't half bad. Has this series actually gotten good since the start?
    I've heard it started getting better in the third season and that its fourth season is incredible. I wouldn't know for sure, though, seeing as how I haven't kept up with it after season one.
    Quote Originally Posted by SubSane
    Never watched any of the others such as JL. Just too bright for me I guess.
    All I have to say is that you're missing out big time. You'll probably be interested to know that Jonah Hex returns in an episode of JLU.
    Quote Originally Posted by SubSane
    EDIT: Bah, you bastards got me started! I also thank TAS for introducing me to the Jonah Hex character. One of the most awesome fuckin' Western characters ever, and worthy of more popularity than he currently has.
    Yeah, I love the character, and the voice actor for him was great. Apparently Fox Kids was thinking about a Jonah Hex cartoon series and they asked Bruce Timm to incorporate him into an episode of B:TAS. It turned out to be one of the most fun episodes of the series.

  21. #21
    Profound Sadness Kiyosuki's Avatar
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    Second, you clearly imply at the end of the second paragraph that Terry is not a normal human being, as if his genetic ties make him some superhuman or something, which simply isn't true. :
    Thats not what I meant at all. What I mean comes down to this big question which is pretty much the main thing that splits people on this, is Bruce Wayne the Batman, or is the Batman Bruce Wayne? What that means is that like the person you quoted said, some people believe that Bruce Wayne -is- Batman, that no one else can be Batman. That they're one, and its not exactly wrong to think that. Batman isn't a real person, the whole comic itself is a timeless story so naturally Bruce Wayne will be forever the main person behind the mask.

    However, -theoretically-, in a story about the future of that world where Bruce will inevitably grow old one day is a different story. Bruce Wayne originally created the alter-ego of Batman to be an immortal image. Propaganda even, he's a well trained man with the greatest technology has to offer at any given time, probably the peak of human potential. But no matter what he's still a man, he made Batman as the ultimate form of propaganda to make himself more than a man. And looking at it that way, thats where the split on this happens.

    Bruce may have first held the mantle, but is he really the embodiment of Batman? He's just the man behind the mask in a way, we know him as Batman but do the people in the DC world know Batman as Bruce Wayne? No, he's Batman. He became more of an untouchable concept than just one man. Thats why a lot of people preferred that it was someone who was completely unrelated to Bruce, it showed that Bruce had created something beyond what even he can control. That Batman is truly timeless now. That Batman doesn't belong to Bruce Wayne anymore, he belongs to the human race.

    You can say that happened anyways, since neither Bruce nor Terry knew about any of that originally, but thats still more of a technicality now. I understand they had to find a leeway between the two since so many traditionalists scoff at the idea of anyone but Bruce being Batman even if its a what-if future, and I don't hate the episode. I do like it a lot but I still feel like that idea is a little bit cheaper now. Looking at it another way I can see though too how this idea I've been talking about actually won through in the end of Epilogue, that it was Amanda Waller really who thought only Bruce could be Batman so she tried to make it that way, but she failed. Technology and planning couldn't reproduce the legacy of the Batman. I do get that and I can appreaciate it for what it is, but still the exact same person ends up having his dad killed and becoming Batman anyways. No matter what its still a technicality, I wish maybe they had gone about it a different way.
    Last edited by Kiyosuki; 07-24-2007 at 04:07 PM.

  22. #22
    . TheForbiddenDonut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiyosuki
    Thats not what I meant at all. What I mean comes down to this big question which is pretty much the main thing that splits people on this, is Bruce Wayne the Batman, or is the Batman Bruce Wayne? What that means is that like the person you quoted said, some people believe that Bruce Wayne -is- Batman, that no one else can be Batman. That they're one, and its not exactly wrong to think that. Batman isn't a real person, the whole comic itself is a timeless story so naturally Bruce Wayne will be forever the main person behind the mask.
    Oh, I'm very familiar with the idea that Batman is the man and Bruce Wayne is the disguise. As far the Batman Animated universe is concerned, there has been at least one time it has been argued that Bruce Wayne is the more prominent persona as shown in the episode 'Perchance to Dream', in which we see Batman/Bruce Wayne's ideal life would be like; as it turns out, we see Bruce's ideal life without a conflicting Batman persona and not the other way around. But then as the episode unfolds itself, we realize that Bruce cannot exist without Batman, and thus we learn that Batman and Bruce Wayne are inseparable. Batman may be an immortal entity, but Bruce made it so, and no matter who takes up the mantle, Bruce Wayne the man should be acknowledged, which is why I think making Terry Bruce's son is only fitting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiyosuki
    However, -theoretically-, in a story about the future of that world where Bruce will inevitably grow old one day is a different story. Bruce Wayne originally created the alter-ego of Batman to be an immortal image. Propaganda even, he's a well trained man with the greatest technology has to offer at any given time, probably the peak of human potential. But no matter what he's still a man, he made Batman as the ultimate form of propaganda to make himself more than a man. And looking at it that way, thats where the split on this happens.

    Bruce may have first held the mantle, but is he really the embodiment of Batman? He's just the man behind the mask in a way, we know him as Batman but do the people in the DC world know Batman as Bruce Wayne? No, he's Batman. He became more of an untouchable concept than just one man. Thats why a lot of people preferred that it was someone who was completely unrelated to Bruce, it showed that Bruce had created something beyond what even he can control. That Batman is truly timeless now. That Batman doesn't belong to Bruce Wayne anymore, he belongs to the human race.
    Well, I don't think animated continuity has ever really made it certain that Wayne created Batman as an immortal image, much less propaganda, but yeah, I guess we can assume that. Onto your second paragraph, people who know Batman's alter ego do tend to know Batman as Bruce Wayne, Superman being the prime example. Or maybe I'm missing the point there a bit. But as for your 'Bruce creating something he couldn't control', that's not entirely accurate. After all, Bruce trained Terry, owns the costume, called the shots, and even had a button on the Bat-Computer that could render the suit useless at will. So related or unrelated, Bruce really was something of a control freak when it came to Terry's exploits as Batman. If anything, the ending to 'Epilogue', in which Terry decides to get married and live a different life as Bruce, completely shows that the mantle of the Batman is now totally passed down and is no longer rooted in the choices Bruce personally made. 'Epilogue' seems to show that Terry is now in control of the mantle, and Bruce is no longer the taskmaster he was throughout the 'Batman Beyond' series.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiyosuki
    You can say that happened anyways, since neither Bruce nor Terry knew about any of that originally, but thats still more of a technicality now. I understand they had to find a leeway between the two since so many traditionalists scoff at the idea of anyone but Bruce being Batman even if its a what-if future, and I don't hate the episode. I do like it a lot but I still feel like that idea is a little bit cheaper now. Looking at it another way I can see though too how this idea I've been talking about actually won through in the end of Epilogue, that it was Amanda Waller really who thought only Bruce could be Batman so she tried to make it that way, but she failed. Technology and planning couldn't reproduce the legacy of the Batman. I do get that and I can appreaciate it for what it is, but still the exact same person ends up having his dad killed and becoming Batman anyways. No matter what its still a technicality, I wish maybe they had gone about it a different way.
    Well, actually, part of the point of making the end of 'Batman Beyond' a 'JLU' episode is to make clear that Batman Beyond is actual continuity and not merely a what-if story. And yes, Terry's 'father' died anyway, and therefore it can be argued that Batman is just a byproduct of childhood tragedy in any incarnation. But 'Epilogue' refutes this again by revealing Bruce as the biological father. Yes, Warren definitely was a father in a non-technical sense to Terry, and yet in 'Epilogue', Terry is on the verge of giving up the mantle, and only takes it up again after learning that Warren was never his real father. So then Terry chooses to be Batman, not due to a tragedy, and certainly not due to genetics, but because he recognizes the importance of the Batman legacy and his responsibility to continue it. 'Epilogue' singlehandedly turns Terry into his own man, separate from Bruce and refutes the idea that tragedy and genetics are the only ingredients to make a Batman. If anything, the episode shows that Batman is immortal, and by means of the circular ending (ala the first B:TAS episode 'On Leather Wings'), shows that Batman will go on. Say what you will about the genetic decision (which as Mr. Allman pointed out, did serve a purpose), the episode shows better than any 'Batman Beyond' episode that the mantle of Batman is never-ending.

  23. #23
    Profound Sadness Kiyosuki's Avatar
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    Jesus Christ. lol

    Well for one thing when I said a "what-if" story I meant in the broad sense, that any future stories in the Batman mythos are a what if. Its the future of DCAU yeah, but when it comes to Batman in general thats just one possibility.

    The thing is, is Bruce considers himself Batman, but thats his problem. lol I think its actually an interesting thing about him in the show, if he were immortal he would so keep Batman all to himself. But the thing is, is whether he likes it or not Batman has become immortal while he himself hasn't. There's something very mortal and human about that anyone can appreaciate whether they think the clone thing was a good idea or not. Its that kind of thing that separates Batman from other superheroes, especially other DC ones.

    But anyways, I think we're kind of losing the point here. I do appreaciate Epilogue for everything you've pretty much said, but I just personally wish they had gone about it a bit differently. I preferred it when he was a stranger in every sense, even genetically. Like Bruce could train protegees, try to last as long as he possibly could, but no matter what he did inevitably a completely random element in humanity just came and took Batman from him because the city needed him more than Bruce did. Thats really all it comes down to on why others and myself wish that went a bit differently.

    I still like the episode quite a bit though.

  24. #24
    . TheForbiddenDonut's Avatar
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    So yeah, I think this argument is finished. I guess it's just one of those episodes where you either liked the choice the producers chose or don't like it. I personally think it's the best of JLU and better than anything done in 'Batman Beyond' the series. But it may just be my appreciation of the excessive references and the tear-jerker flashback that give this episode an edge to me.

  25. #25


    I'm big fan of the D.C Animated Universe espically of Batman: TAS, Superman: TAS, Justice League Unlimted, and Batman Beyond. However, I was never a fan of The Zeta Protect and Static Shock. Here are my top ten favorite DCAU episodes
    1. Two Face
    2. Lecacy
    3. Apokolips... Now!
    4. A Heart of Ice
    5. Little Girl Lost
    6. Destroyer
    7. Twlight
    8. Almost Got 'im
    9. Alive
    10. Out of the Past
    However I wasn't a big fan of them making the charector designs less detailed after the orginal Batman: TAS. But I still loved the shows.
    Sorry for spelling and grammer

  26. #26
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    That's a pretty good top ten list, actually. I love every one of those episodes except for 'Little Girl Lost'. I haven't really decided on a top ten list, although I know it would include 'Heart of Ice', 'Two-Face', 'Legends', 'Apokalips...Now!' pt 2, and perhaps 'Rebirth'. I'll probably figure it out after completing my marathon (still in the middle of 'Batman Beyond').

  27. #27


    What is thought on them changing the charector designs on Batman:TAS. I hated how Joker didn't look a scary and mencing as he did before. Luckly they changed his design for Justice League and Batman Beyond. Two-Face and Mr. Freeze didn't look as good as they did in the orginal Batman: TAS. It looked as though they just rushed on them. However, the redesigns for Scarecrow and Bane rocked. To bad Scarecrow couldn't appear on Justice League because of the god awful The Batman. The Batman was also one of the main reasons why the DCAU ended.

  28. #28
    don't quite cover all CousinMerl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sideshow Jessica
    To bad Scarecrow couldn't appear on Justice League because of the god awful The Batman. The Batman was also one of the main reasons why the DCAU ended.
    Wasn't the real reason Scarecrow couldn't appear in JL the movie Batman Begins?, thats the thing I have heard. Scarecrow doesn't appear in The Batman, so it couldn't be what's the reason for no Scarecrow in Justice League.

    You would probaly know if im right or wrong, ForbiddenDonut;
    Last edited by CousinMerl; 08-05-2007 at 01:37 PM.

  29. #29
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    Yeah, there's this infamous thing called 'The Bat Embargo', where DC didn't let characters in different shows and movies appear simultaneously in other shows and movies. Example; during 'Justice League: Unlimited', no Batman villains from either 'Batman Begins' or 'The Batman' could appear. That's why some minor Batman villains that didn't appear elsewhere (KGBeast and Hugo Strange, for example [although, he was used later on in 'The Batman']) were used in JLU. Also, you'll notice that out of all villains that have been used in 'The Batman', there has been no Scarecrow, Ras Al Ghul, or Two-Face, which is due to Chris Nolan's films. Joker seems to break the rule, but probably because he's such a huge character.

  30. #30
    Vs. The World Alpha's Avatar
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    I didn't have much to do yesterday, so I watched a lot of Batman: TAS. I think I've come up with a pretty satisfying list of my top 20 episodes.

    1. "The Man Who Killed Batman"
    2. "Trial"
    3. "Heart of Ice"
    4. "Almost Got 'Im"
    5. "Read My Lips"
    6. "The Laughing Fish"
    7. "Perchance to Dream"
    8. "Feat of Clay"
    9. "Paging the Crime Doctor"
    10. "A Bullet for Bullock"
    11. "On Leather Wings"
    12. "Two-Face"
    13. "Harley's Holiday"
    14. "The Clock King"
    15. "Second Chance"
    16. "Robin's Reckoning"
    17. "Deep Freeze"
    18. "Joker's Wild"
    19. "Harlequinade"
    20. "Showdown"

    The order might be a little off and I'm sure there are plenty of classics that I'm forgetting, but for now, this list sounds pretty good.



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