By Season 23, A Slight Rise Of Quality In Humor and Emotional Storylines In The Simpsons. Yes Or No.

[7eleven2007]

Even though opinions are subjective, one can argue the older episodes were better because structurely, they were put together better. Even when the 300th episode aired, EW did a survey regarding the 25 (50?) best Simpsons episodes, all but one was from season 9, and before. With the exception of "Spiderpig" almost all the funny lines that people were repeating came mostly from the first half of the series run.

Even though older episodes may be better structurally, one cannot say they are better overall due to the fact that other things like humor in an episode is mostly subjective. You may say Lisa's Wedding's structure is way better than A Totally Fun Thing That Bart May Never Do Again, but you cant say Lisa's Wedding is better than the season 23 episode for everyone. Because what you find emotional in Lisa's Wedding may not work for everyone. On average modern simpsons get at least 4million views per episode, there must be someone out there who likes Lisa goes gaga better than Lisa's Wedding.

[TheSecondComing]

Even though older episodes may be better structurally, one cannot say they are better overall due to the fact that other things like humor in an episode is mostly subjective.

Yes, but the fact that the general opinion among almost nearly every Simpson fan on this board and essentially almost 100% of the casual viewers I meet; is that the show sucks now and has ruined it's own legacy. So statistically speaking modern Simpsons are worse. People seem to literally hate the show now, and I don't just mean us picky nerds, the drop in quality has been obvious to the casual viewer since about season 10 maybe.

[Zombies Rise from the Sea]

It doesn't really matter what type of appeals the show has now and back then in 1996 because they vary from person to person. As long as you admit that objectively speaking, some of the appeals of the Simpsons, whether it be emotion, storytelling characterization or humor, has changed over the 23 years, the viewer"s response to those episodes change as well.

But that's not what I was asking; if you were around for the days of alt.tv.simpsons then you'd realize there was a negative fanbase on the show, a real negative one. I'm asking what show is equivalent to Family Guy in 1996 and yeah, I'm aware that the tastes change but it doesn't factor into your analysis of fans who like content vs. fans who like stupid humor. The Simpsons could of changed to suit those tastes, it could of changed because of the writers, doesn't matter. What matters is the placement of viewers according to your "scale".

While I do agree that there are endless lists of criteria, and the sliding scale should include more than family guy and classical Simpsons, ultimately it doesn't matter. Because the point is to say that because some of the appealing factors of the simpsons changed from its transition from classical to modern, the viewers also shifted its opinions on the quality of the episodes and seasons.

Yes it does, opinion is opinion and it can't be easily shifted. There may be a perception that older fans like the classic era more and newer fans don't care much for the classic area but it's just opinion, opinion that's the same no matter how much it change; the audience didn't shift from being on the Classic SImpsons side or the Family Guy side, they just either liked it, disliked it or hated it.

At the end, one must admit the Simpsons changed. Therefore subjectively for each audience, their opinion must change to an extent, whether for the better or for the worse and by how much depends completely on the viewer. Family guy style and classical Simpsons style viewers are merely two examples of the endless type of viewers out there.

We've been doing that for years, some may point out the decline in quality, others note that we can't reach the classic era anymore (14-16 are prime modern season eras where at least the quality is comparable.) and some just flat out praise it as a second coming of the classic era. (If you read any of those "recaps" that pose as reviews on the AV club, you'll know what I'm talking about.) And again, opinion is opinion, while your "change to an extent" does have some merit (mostly due to people getting used to it), it's ultimately baseless as people still hold their own standards of what's good since the day they first started watching The Simpsons, nothing changes to a major extent for them. (Again, "Oh, That's Raspberry!" is a moderator who both likes the Classic Era and the Modern Era equally and his opinion hasn't changed at all since the day he first started watching.)

So when asking whether season 23 is better, or really whethere classical Simpsons or modern Simpsons is better, the answer is simply inconclusive. It really depends on who you are.

No it's not, because this is where it gets different, analyzing it from a pacing standpoint or a joke standpoint reveals the modern simpsons episode flaws; the plots are mostly inconsistent, the jokes are mostly lazy and placed at the wrong times, the concept is sometimes handled awkwardly to the point where the writers are forced to go wacky in order to get the plot back on track and the writing is just not there. (Inconsistent characters, awkward plot moments, sudden additions to the plot.) It depends on what type of humor you like yes, if you enjoy what they're doing then power to you, if you don't, also power to you but from a production standpoint many episodes are severely lacking. (That's keeping in mind that there are writers, directors, producers, animators who work on the show, and without them well... there just isn't a show.)

[The Governor]

Even though older episodes may be better structurally, one cannot say they are better overall due to the fact that other things like humor in an episode is mostly subjective. You may say Lisa's Wedding's structure is way better than A Totally Fun Thing That Bart May Never Do Again, but you cant say Lisa's Wedding is better than the season 23 episode for everyone. Because what you find emotional in Lisa's Wedding may not work for everyone. On average modern simpsons get at least 4million views per episode, there must be someone out there who likes Lisa goes gaga better than Lisa's Wedding.

This excuse is more balloney because all you're saying is: "If someone likes it, then it cannot be truly bad." Eh, yeah it can, otherwise all 20,000+ movies that have been made could fit in a top ten list.

[7eleven2007]

This excuse is more balloney because all you're saying is: "If someone likes it, then it cannot be truly bad." Eh, yeah it can, otherwise all 20,000+ movies that have been made could fit in a top ten list.

Open up ur mind brah, good and bad are all relative, just like good and evil, it all depends on whose shoe ur stepping in

[Dark Homer]

[The Governor]

Open up ur mind brah, good and bad are all relative, just like good and evil, it all depends on whose shoe ur stepping in

I'd rather be closed minded and have an actual opinion.

[7eleven2007]

I'd rather be closed minded and have an actual opinion.

U can have an opinion while being open minded. I believe classical Simpsons is better than modern Simpsons in every way, but I still respect the opinions of those who thinks the opposite of me.

[Brad Lascelle]

I came into this thread expecting an intelligent debate on whether Season 23 was a step up from Season 22.
Not a recycling of the overdone "everything sucks except the classic era" argument.

All of the spelling mistakes and grammatical errors make my head hurt.

[cloneasaurus]

I came into this thread expecting an intelligent debate on whether Season 23 was a step up from Season 22.
Not a recycling of the overdone "everything sucks except the classic era" argument.

what intelligent discussion is there to be had? season 23 had higher 'highs' and lower lows, while season 22 was more consistently bad, we get it. as i sorta said earlier, season 23 was just another season produced by the same simpsons team that's stuck around for however many seasons. there's really not much meaty discussion to be had, and considering many people's opinions on the show, it's unsurprising barely anyone has gone through the effort of trying to dig up some discussion, or that any interesting discussion has arised. don't get me wrong, i want interesting discussion, and i am tired of people reiterating how bad the show is and making tired 'zings' on the current show's part, but it's not really surprising the thread may have resorted to that.

[The Governor]

I came into this thread expecting an intelligent debate on whether Season 23 was a step up from Season 22.
Not a recycling of the overdone "everything sucks except the classic era" argument.

All of the spelling mistakes and grammatical errors make my head hurt.

Did the show overhaul the staff? Did we get a new executive producer? Did James L. Brooks suddenly contribute emotionally compelling 3rd or 4th acts?

No. Season 23 is the Al Jean is still in charge of the same group of writers turning out the same tired material. It's your fault for coming to a topic expecting a miraculous 180 degree turn in opinions when nothing has changed.

[The Governor]

U can have an opinion while being open minded. I believe classical Simpsons is better than modern Simpsons in every way, but I still respect the opinions of those who thinks the opposite of me.

Respect is earned. I tolerate people who have the viewpoint the show has gotten better or is just as good as ever, but instead of coming up with a compelling argument as to why they think they do, they complain "the haters" and about how unfair it is being in the minority.

[shoz999]

Meh... usually starts out with a debate, but than turns into arguments, nonsense, and making fun of each other, though their are still smart responses that come up from time to time. NoHomers used to have all sorts of intelligent debates back than though now it often changes the subject or make funs of one opinions, that doesn't mean their aren't any intelligent debates still.

[zach]

NoHomers used to have all sorts of intelligent debates back than though now it often changes the subject

yeah back when they were all fresh topics. everyone has written these topics to death.

[The Governor]

Meh... usually starts out with a debate, but than turns into arguments, nonsense, and making fun of each other, though their are still smart responses that come up from time to time.

No, the people who defend the classic era actually have something to back up their view--it's funnier, has better emotional resonance, tone, empathy, coherent storytelling, etc.

People who say the show hasn't declined say the modern episodes are just as good "because they are and if you don't agree, you're blinded by nostalgia!!!".

[shoz999]

No offense, but honestly, by the look of the many past comments, I don't think your defending the Classic Era as much. In fact, in a few, a few comments, your showing a negative approach to the Modern Simpsons without even mentioning one thing about Classic Simpsons. That doesn't mean you don't defend it, I've seen some comments of yours that defended the Classic Simpsons strongly. Plus, I never said the show was not in decline, I was just asking around to see if they noticed a SLIGHT rise. I said SLIGHT because apparently everyone, by the looks of it, thought I meant a strong increase in quality.I said slight because it's usually short-lived. In fact, if you seen a few of my earlier comments from other threads, the one about "Are The Simpsons in Decline" a week ago I think, you'll see that I do agree that is still in decline though I also think their are short-lived rises in quality of the Modern Simpsons, in the Classic Simpsons their long-lived rises in quality which basically means a boom in quality but has it's end.
I defend, even failing at times, the entire Simpsons, both classic and modern. Before you go saying the Modern Simpsons suck, most people who are defending the Modern Simpsons are also defending the Classic Simpsons. You may see this as "A Simpsons Fan Who Think The Simpsons Are Still Funny" type deal, but lots of those are Classic Simpson Fan at heart. I just think that if your disrespecting the Modern Simpsons your disrespecting the entire series, perhaps if people took a better specific approach like dislike certain episodes of the Modern Simpsons, many are negative, or aspects of the plotline, it would be seen as not disrespecting, but just disliking aspects of the Modern Simpsons, though you probably are like that. If you seen my latest thread, I think that the ideas made for Modern Simpsons are original but have bad execution because they can't seem to expand a great idea into a proper plotline. I'm not one of those people who say, "Modern Simpsons Are Entirely Good", I'm just a Simpson fan who gives an opinion on both pros and cons of the Modern Simpsons... most of them are pros because I often seen negativity towards The Modern Simpsons at a point that they ignore entirely the pro's, even if their are more Cons to it.
Plus, I'm more of a Simpsons Tracy Ulman Short Fan at heart than a Simpsons Classic Fan at heart... and yes, I know that this is a lot off topic.

[The Governor]

No offense, but honestly, by the look of the many past comments, I don't think your defending the Classic Era as much. In fact, in a few, a few comments, your showing a negative approach to the Modern Simpsons without even mentioning one thing about Classic Simpsons.

I don't have to compare the current show to the classic era, because, IMO, the modern show is bad by any standard.

That doesn't mean you don't defend it, I've seen some comments of yours that defended the Classic Simpsons strongly. Plus, I never said the show was not in decline, I was just asking around to see if they noticed a SLIGHT rise. I said SLIGHT because apparently everyone, by the looks of it, thought I meant a strong increase in quality.I said slight because it's usually short-lived. In fact, if you seen a few of my earlier comments from other threads, the one about "Are The Simpsons in Decline" a week ago I think, you'll see that I do agree that is still in decline though I also think their are short-lived rises in quality of the Modern Simpsons, in the Classic Simpsons their long-lived rises in quality which basically means a boom in quality but has it's end.

It's all in perspective. A few less-than-awful episodes here and there is nothing to be proud of and episodes like "Holidays of Future Passed" is a rare modern episode that actually is good on it's own merits. Would it have been 'better' if it was made in the first 10 seasons, yeah, but for what the show puts out these days, it's about as good as we can hope for. (BTW, don't bother saying HOFP would be "Lisa's Wedding")

I defend, even failing at times, the entire Simpsons, both classic and modern. Before you go saying the Modern Simpsons suck, most people who are defending the Modern Simpsons are also defending the Classic Simpsons. You may see this as "A Simpsons Fan Who Think The Simpsons Are Still Funny" type deal, but lots of those are Classic Simpson Fan at heart.

If the show was still 'that' good, it wouldn't have to hide behind the classic era. The only thing hiding behind the classic era does is make the current show look that much worse. Imagine hanging out with a bum, would you make the bum look better, or would he make you look worse?

I just think that if your disrespecting the Modern Simpsons your disrespecting the entire series, perhaps if people took a better specific approach like dislike certain episodes of the Modern Simpsons, many are negative, or aspects of the plotline, it would be seen as not disrespecting, but just disliking aspects of the Modern Simpsons, though you probably are like that.

Wow, that's just misguided optimism. The classic era didn't get great by accident, it was great because it did a bang up job and it was created by a nearly entire different staff. So, why should I give the same respect to the show produced by different writers who don't either don't get (or don't care about) what made the show great?

If you seen my latest thread, I think that the ideas made for Modern Simpsons are original but have bad execution because they can't seem to expand a great idea into a proper plotline. I'm not one of those people who say, "Modern Simpsons Are Entirely Good", I'm just a Simpson fan who gives an opinion on both pros and cons of the Modern Simpsons... most of them are pros because I often seen negativity towards The Modern Simpsons at a point that they ignore entirely the pro's, even if their are more Cons to it.

Like what me and others have said in the past--you're assuming that many people who dislike the modern Simpsons are purposely dismissing jokes and they like to criticize other problems, or focus on things they maybe shouldn't care about. That's simply not true, one of my biggest complaints is that for all of the problems the modern Simpsons contain, its biggest problem is the show feels like it's being produced like a cheap consumer good instead of a labor of love. Why should ignore 9/10s of the bad to pretend the other 1/10th is greatest thing since oxygen? On the old alt.tv.simpsons (the newsgroup that gave birth to the CBG stereotype), one poster said it best regarding the then beginning decling of the show:

ozzy720: Jonathan Swift is satirical, the new Simpsons is just dumb. To be satirical
a form of wit has to be involved. Irony makes me smirk, bitter sarcasm
makes me think, wit makes me laugh out loud. The Simpsons have de-evolved
into show and tell. The writers present you with cliches mixed with tired
formulas in an attempt to find something "ironic" and tell you "this is
what's funny, laugh". And some people, because they dont know any better,
think it's the most brilliant thing since Pauly Shore's "Biodome".

Little did he know years later, the smart comedy was all but forgotten and the "cuz it's the Simpsons" defense force is joyfully upholding the show's good name by supporting what made it terrible. Just like the writers, the modern fans take the show for granted and don't remember a time when nearly every episode was 5/5 because it was genuinely good, not because it wasn't total shit.

And Mr. Ozzy said in his closing:

ozzy720: I hope one day to also get my labotomy and love the new Simpsons, but Im so
far down the waiting list. I mean no offense to you, it's just that my lips
have been pursed and I've been letting out my rage at small animals and
children. I hope that either the Simpsons get good or get gone, or maybe
that I will learn to love them... learn how to get dumb. The smart ass
would answer "you're already there".

[MrPlowKing]

nope.