Interesting 1997 post I found - "6 Reasons Why 'The Simpsons' Is Going Downhill"

[irvine_11]

I always thought alt.tv.simpsons on Google Groups was an interesting way to find old posts on the subject of The Simpsons decline from many years ago. Even if that forum isn't as popular as it was in the 90s, I am simply glad that the old threads were saved and are still around so I could make posts like these.

One thing I have to say is that a lot of the stuff said on this thread is still apt in the show today. I hardly agree with what this thread says now, but I will agree that at the time, season 8 was quite a big change for the show.

All right, that's enough of my babble. Here it is...

I just got done watching "Simpsoncalifblahblahblah" and
was disappointed to discover that it was the third subpar
"Simpsons" in a row. And here's my opinions why. Some of
these things are already familiar from countless recent
postings, but bear repeating.......


1) Jokes that go on too long


Like in "Mountain of Madness", Homer and Mr. Burns
speaking.... very.... slowly.... to stop further avalanches.


And in "Simpsoncali...", where Homer is shown thinking
about some ancient black and white cartoon. Funny for
the first few seconds, but overstayed its welcome. Showing
Homer humming along to the song in his head was overkill
as well.


2) Jokes that are EXPLAINED to me


This really got me angry during "Simpsoncali..." Two examples:
First, when "Krusty Komedy Klassic" spelled "KKK" on the set.
The writers could have just left it there and that would have been
a small subtle joke, but Krusty noticed it in a protracted way, and
gee, it turns out he's at the Apollo Theater and he gets pelted with
garbage. I dunno. It was a bit forced for my taste.


And not long after, Krusty does his "Mad About Shoe" sketch, and
gets pelted again. He then says "You're not gonna like our 'NYPD
Shoe' sketch." Okay, great. That's subtle and funny. End the
scene there. But noooo. Krusty then says "It's pretty much the
same thing."


Yes, I know! I GET THE JOKE!


3) Too many songs


Nuff said. Let's have a string of episodes that don't include songs.
The ones in "Simpsoncali..." were okay, but song lyrics rarely come
across as being more funny than good dialogue could be. And please,
let's not end another episode with a song until next season at the
earliest.


4) Shoehorning recurring characters into shows


Hey, I love Ned, Principal Skinner, Apu, Moleman, et al, but recent
episodes seem to try to give as many of them lines as humanly possible.


"Simpsoncali..." was an especially blatant example of this, particularly in the
one scene where everyone greets Sherry Bobbins. I was thinking, "Enough
already!" Perhaps I'm in the minority on this, but the reason I love so many of
the recurring characters is BECAUSE they are not featured often on the show.
The less often I see them, the more glad I am when they do turn up. Maybe
every third or fourth show would be better. Mind you, it wouldn't make the show
funnier, but it would keep it fresher.


5) Too many pop culture references


Whoever posted a message that included this complaint hit the nail on
the head. It IS like watching "Animaniacs" nowadays. And truly classic
comedy like "Monty Python" does avoid making such inevitably dated jokes.
So while "Reservoir Cats" was good, I could have done without Charles
Bronson on "Andy Griffith" (too absurd a situation to be hilarious-- still funny,
though).


6) Changing characters' histories and natures


A la "Hurricane Neddy." This has been discussed many times. I often think
we fans take the characters more seriously than the show's ever-changing
stable of writers.


So, there you have it. Having said all that, though, I still have to say that "The
Simpsons" remains a good, if not great show. It's well worth watching just
for those few big laughs I always get. (In "Simpsoncali..." those would be
the B&W cartoon in Homer's head, Barney's near-operatic singing voice, and
Groundskeeper Willie's "Maniac" routine. All were inspired.)


Well, that's my two cents. I hope the writers can get it together and produce
something as good as "Springfield Files" or "El Viaje." Those are my picks
for the best of the season so far (but I missed the first three eps of the
season, though).

Original thread: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.t...5494b5dabd2b69

[The Governor]

Before this thread degenerates into: "Well, the people who complained about this are being stupid!", the author was complaining about the show based on the first five or six seasons. If he/she suddenly saw "The Greatest Story Ever D'ohed", there'd be an apology letter written to Sherry Bobbins.

[irvine_11]

Hahaha, that made my day, Jake.

[prince jafar allah]

doesnt them liking the springfield files contradict pretty much everything they've just said

[Nauru-1]

Before this thread degenerates into: "Well, the people who complained about this are being stupid!", the author was complaining about the show based on the first five or six seasons. If he/she knew suddenly saw "The Greatest Story Ever D'ohed", there'd be an apology letter written to Sherry Bobbins.

I actually think you don't hear from that crowd anymore because they all shot themselves during the Scully years.

[The Governor]

I actually think you don't hear from that crowd anymore because they all shot themselves during the Scully years.

I think the episode "Kill an alt.tv.simpson fan and Run" finally thinned out the ranks.

[Swartzweldian]

The complaint list is pretty valid (nothing compared to what they'd see the following seasons..). Season 8 was a pretty big change and the first big downhill slide IMO. Especially towards the end of the season.

[Dark Homer]

we're very fortunate the writers were able to nip these problems in the bud before they became widespread

[Jesse Pinkman]

i would like to know what they think of the current seasons. too bad that's pretty much impossible.

good reasons on the 'decline'. even though i love s8 i can still appreciate the reasons, even if i don't agree with them

[Bartesque]

3) Too many songs

*hides evidence of "All Singing, All Dancing" existing*

[The Governor]

i would like to know what they think of the current seasons. too bad that's pretty much impossible.

good reasons on the 'decline'. even though i love s8 i can still appreciate the reasons, even if i don't agree with them

Unless you watched the show in order, it's hard to. Most people today who read posts like the one from 1997 are like: "What? Season 8 didn't have these problems, and if they did, they were trite in comparison!"

[Nebuchanezzar]

over-explained, lengthy, (unfunny) jokes? thank god these issues didn't make an unwelcome return!

edit: or what jamie said i suppose...

[irvine_11]

So, I did a little more snooping around - this time on the old SNPP reviews, and at the time, people were complaining about how bad season eight is, but by the time season nine rolled around, people were saying that the remaining 4F and 3G episodes were going to be the last decent ones. Really tells you something, doesn't it?

[Nebuchanezzar]

not really. around season 8 or so the only material we could compare episodes to were episodes from the first seven seasons. they were excellent and so, understandably, people were calling the lacking episodes of season 8 terrible. for that time, they were. with retrospect it's easy to spit out the old jean/groening line of "the fans are fickle, they've been saying we're shit from the beggining." that assumes that there's some kind of objective standard to measure the simpsons against. there isn't. when an episode (or season) is worse than anything before it it becomes terrible. later on, when something far more terrible comes out, the previous terrible material becomes ok. or in the case of some of seasons 9 and 10, "good".

matt groening and al jean ought to be placated by the thought that, continuing with the current trend, we will be calling season 20 fantastic in 10 years time, because those future episodes will be exponentially worse than what we have now.

lets run it into the ground boys!

edit: i assume that your point was to say that the fans at that time didn't have a point, btw.

[hughes]

So, if the show had ended after season 8, would 8 be considered terrible?

[Old painty-can Ned]

In terms of the rest of the show yeah season 8 would be considered "terrible". It's almost a completely different show than the first 7 season and much weaker. But it is still quality television and it's negatives aren't that glaring it's just because the previous 7 seasons are amazing.

[Nebuchanezzar]

So, if the show had ended after season 8, would 8 be considered terrible?

judging by the angry fans of the time, and depending on whether or not they enjoyed season 8, maybe? it wasn't as good or consistent as the rest of seasons 2-7 (5 excepted) so i assume it'd be bottom of the barrel type of stuff.

thank god the simpsons barrel is better than most other barrel though. i assume that's where the whole "it's still better than most of the stuff on tv" line came from. pity that line doesn't hold anymore.

[The Governor]

So, I did a little more snooping around - this time on the old SNPP reviews, and at the time, people were complaining about how bad season eight is, but by the time season nine rolled around, people were saying that the remaining 4F and 3G episodes were going to be the last decent ones. Really tells you something, doesn't it?

One prediction the ATS newsgroup that came true was how Homer was going to become an asshole once Scully became showrunner based on how episodes he wrote.

[Nauru-1]

If the show ended at season 8, it would be weak within the series itself, but as part of an amazing run. Compare that to now where you have bad seasons in a series where we're now approaching only a third of it being of a consistent high quality. Season 8 may have been viewed as incredibly problematic, but based on the standard of the witty, satirical, and heartfelt show of the early to mid 90's. The difference between a scenario like this and, say, season 10, is that the harsh criticism in the case of the former didn't continue as the show did.

The annoying thing about the SNPP reviews I've seen is that the comments for some reason seem to become more forgiving once you get into the Scully seasons. They may not always be the same people, but it's in line with that tragic irony that the show seems more universally praised in the media now than it was when it actually deserved it.

[Dark Homer]

I think the maintainers were actively trying to incorporate a wider variety of opinions into the episode capsules during that time

could be wrong, though

[The Wiggs]

It's interesting to read something like this. I also gotta agree with him. Never like Simpsoncali....... whatever. Very smart post by whoever that was.

[The Governor]

If the show ended at season 8, it would be weak within the series itself, but as part of an amazing run. Compare that to now where you have bad seasons in a series where we're now approaching only a third of it being of a consistent high quality. Season 8 may have been viewed as incredibly problematic, but based on the standard of the witty, satirical, and heartfelt show of the early to mid 90's. The difference between a scenario like this and, say, season 10, is that the harsh criticism in the case of the former didn't continue as the show did.

The annoying thing about the SNPP reviews I've seen is that the comments for some reason seem to become more forgiving once you get into the Scully seasons. They may not always be the same people, but it's in line with that tragic irony that the show seems more universally praised in the media now than it was when it actually deserved it.

The internet, at least during the first decade of the Simpsons's existence, was more geared toward obsessive nerds like in "Homer Goes to College" rather than the casual fanbase that just happens to use the internet today. Back in the early 90's when I didn't know what the internet was (circa 1992), I was shown the Simpsons newsgroup on one of the crappy 3 color computer monitors and was like: what the fuck is this and why would I want to be any part of it? Imagine the "internet" of being nothing but lines of text and coding. Blech! You had to be a computer nerd to care, and unfortunetly, these nerds were also obsessive and 'tainted' the reviews with their ire. But the bottom line was, the Newsgroup "alt.tv.simpsons" was nothing like this place. IMO, it wasn't until 1999, or so, when message board started to come into existence that the less uptight viewers began to share their opinions. The bad news was the writers tried to past the "CBG Nerd" label on the latter internet users, but by then the label was as antiquated as the joke: "What computers?" from Homerpalooza.

[Nebuchanezzar]

and yet im sure the untalented bunch that currently inhabit the simpsons writers room continue to believe that we're all comic book guys. never mind the fact that every one of us hates the show in its current state and wants the show to either end/have its staff completely overhauled, because our opinions don't matter: we're comic book guys!

[Financial Panther]

I don't hate the show. I agree it's definitely gone downhill, but I still love it and definitely don't want it to end!

[Haoie]

How low can you go?

Ooof that's it.

[The Governor]

and yet im sure the untalented bunch that currently inhabit the simpsons writers room continue to believe that we're all comic book guys. never mind the fact that every one of us hates the show in its current state and wants the show to either end/have its staff completely overhauled, because our opinions don't matter: we're comic book guys!

I wonder if these hacks are the same type of people who flash their flip-phones to each other and have midi-ringtone throwdowns to see who is the coolest cat in the office.

The losers in the Ringtone throwdown had to sit in the panel at the Comic-Con.

I don't hate the show. I agree it's definitely gone downhill, but I still love it and definitely don't want it to end!

Here you go, FP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwXR-gey9XE

[DotheBartman]

What makes at least parts of that list and a lot of the internet fan complaints around seasons 7 and 8 kind of ridiculous is that they applied about as readily (if not more so) to the Mirkin era.

I mean yeah, I love Mirkin, everyone does, but seasons 7 and 8 had much stronger story lines and character-oriented writing than seasons 5 and 6 did, and this was what a lot of the fans had (perhaps rightly) been complaining about during his seasons. Oakley and Weinstein gave the fans exactly what they'd been clamoring for, and had that effort spat back in their faces by a lot of people. Granted season 7 was a lot better than 8, but it still wasn't "weak" compared to the first seven seasons. I'd take it about as readily as Mirkin's years for one.

But having pored over some of the archived 90s alt.tv.simpsons stuff years ago on Google Groups, there was definitely some really valid stuff and a lot of garbage, too. And a lot of really hypocritical shit and ridiculous name-calling (I love the infamous open-letter that someone wrote addressing Bill and Josh as "Emperor Oakley" and "Jabba the Weinstein." Makes people with signs of Obama/Bush as Hitler look sane*). At least the people the people who felt the first three or four seasons were the best make sense to me, but the people who were criticizing seasons 7 and 8 IN COMPARISON TO the Mirkin years were mostly morons.

*And by the way, some of the stuff here about Scully and Jean (as people, not just addressing their work on The Simpsons) is nearly as bad. Nearly.

[HRH Sir Prince Charles]

I don't know. Snaked still does that "Adolf Jean" thing from time to time... I'd say that's worse.

[DotheBartman]

Hahahaha, true. Yeah I guess there's not that much difference then.

[The Governor]

What makes at least parts of that list and a lot of the internet fan complaints around seasons 7 and 8 kind of ridiculous is that they applied about as readily (if not more so) to the Mirkin era.

I mean yeah, I love Mirkin, everyone does, but seasons 7 and 8 had much stronger story lines and character-oriented writing than seasons 5 and 6 did, and this was what a lot of the fans had (perhaps rightly) been complaining about during his seasons. Oakley and Weinstein gave the fans exactly what they'd been clamoring for, and had that effort spat back in their faces by a lot of people.

You're forgetting that a.t.s. was a revolving door of users, too. Sure, there was core group that stuck around, but O&W's mistake was that EVERYONE wanted the show back like it was in seasons 1-4 and they disregarded the opinions of the people who liked Mirkin's style more. It was bit unassuming to think that everyone is going to like your work 100 percent of the time, which is why the writers think we hate EVERYTHING the show does nowadays when that's far from the truth.

Also, back in the 1990's, two years as a showrunner felt like a much longer time compared to Al Jean's tenure. Every time a showrunner changed, people mistook the change of style as the show falling off a cliff in quality, IMO, and it wasn't till Scully came into power the show felt much worse.