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It could be an interesting thought, but not really; I mean, the Burns shooting was more of an accicent as we saw in 'WSMB Pt. 2'.
some remarks while watching:
Janey's parents must be rich. Have you seen the size of the TV in her house? And that in 1990.
Also, she places a little couch in front of the big couch when she watches TV.
Why doesn't Marge counter Brockman when he compares Itchy and Scratchy with the David?
Exposing kids to violence ain't the same as a nude statue. She gave up surprisingly quickly concerning that argument.
Maggie starts in this episode her career of violence towards grownups. She kicks off with Homer. Burns, the mafia and Cargill among others will follow.
The intro-tune during S2 is slightly different compared with later seasons. I cannot define in which way, it is just something I notice while watching these old eps.
So, uh, how do you guys think the episode compares to later Itchy & Scratchy-themed episode?
I rewatched 'The Day The Violence Died' a while ago and I think that I&S&M is about on par with that one; both are solid and have really good plots (I haven't watched the other episode centered around I&S in a while so I can't really compare them with the currently featured episode, but I recall that 'The Itchy & Scratchy & Poochie Show' was about in the same league as 'Violence').
Last edited by CousinMerl; 06-27-2011 at 01:17 PM.
I'd agree that it is probably on par with The Day the Violence Died, maybe actually a bit better though as if I recall correctly the last act of The Day the Violence Died is pretty meh. I haven't seen it in a long time though. I also haven't seen Itchy & Scratchy Land in a long time, but I probably think it is the funniest of the three. The Itchy & Scratchy & Poochie Show is probably somewhere in the middle, but again I haven't seen that in a long time either.
If I had to rank the four right now though:
Itchy & Scratchy Land
Itchy & Scratchy & Marge
The Day the Violence Died = The Itchy & Scratchy & Poochie Show
Itchy and Scratchy and Marge is easily the best episode of the bunch. I&S&P is the only one that comes close to reaching the heights of this episode. I'm not saying The Day Violence Died or The Front are bad episodes but they're lacking the punch that I&S&M and I&S&P had. As I&S&M and I&S&P are some of the Simpsons best work with satire/humor.
So rankings:I&S&M A+
Itchy and Scratchy Land: A-
Itchy and Scratchy:The Move B+
The front:B/B+ pending re watch.
The Day Violence Died B
edit: Raspberry why do you include I&S Land but not I&S: The Movie?
Last edited by Old painty-can Ned; 06-27-2011 at 01:18 PM.
Honestly it was because I forgot about both Itchy & Scratchy: The Movie, and The Front
Putting those in I'd rank them:
Itchy & Scratchy Land = Itchy & Scratchy: The Movie
Itchy & Scratchy & Marge
The Day the Violence Died = The Itchy & Scratchy & Poochie Show
I&S&M below Itchy and Scratchy Land and itchy and Scratchy:The Movie?? Mind answering why?
They're all 5/5, it's just personal preference. Itchy & Scratchy Land is just consistently funnier. The whole "Pinitchio" gag alone is funnier than anything in Itchy & Scratchy & Marge. Itchy & Scratchy: The Movie has a fantastic Homer/Bart relationship story, though I almost don't even consider it an Itchy & Scratchy episode even though it is one as you pointed out.
But along with the episode being hysterically funny Itchy and Scratchy and Marge is a masterpiece of social satire. While Itchy and Scratchy Land is a nice vacation gag fest episode it can't hold up in the light of Itchy and Scratchy and Marge. For a gag fest to really stack up against an episode like I&S&M it would have to be consistently hilarious the whole way through i.e Marge vs. the Monorail because if it just has laughs it better have a boatload of them.
Last edited by Old painty-can Ned; 06-27-2011 at 02:09 PM.
That's the thing though, satire isn't even close to humor/story in my grading scale. I mean I guess it is important, but when the show manages to do it well it is basically just like icing on the cake to me. An added bonus in other words. Though I will grant you that Itchy & Scratchy & Marge does tell a better story than Itchy & Scratchy Land. I find little about Itchy & Scratchy & Marge hysterically funny though. I dunno, I have to rewatch many of these to know for sure.
Also, I don't love Marge vs. the Monorail as nearly as much as seemingly everyone else.
But the satirical complexities of episodes like Itchy and Scratchy and Marge are what make The Simpsons so special. Sure it's the funniest show ever and what not but there are handfuls of other TV shows where they do an excellent blend of story and humor(not quite to the extent of The Simpsons but some sure are close). Of course the characters in The Simpsons are far more complex than any other shows as well but I do think satire is one of the main components of the show just as much as humor etc.
I realized that about you when I quickly discovered we disagree about a great deal honestly. Satire is great and I even said in my review that it helped set the show apart from the rest so in that sense I agree. It just isn't as big of a deciding factor for me personally. Maybe I am selling its importance a bit short but again, its number 3 or lower on my deciding factors for episode grades. I will also acknowledge that satire breeds its own specific type of humor so it is a more complicated matter than my earlier post let on. Still, it just isn't as necessary to me as a fun/intriguing/emotionally moving story, or laughs. If it was there's no way I could love as many episodes from the past 14 seasons as much as I do.
Great gag, Dan's reading of "Ouch!" in Itchy & Scratchy Land makes me laugh harder...
I want to point out what an amazing presence Alex Rocco is as Roger Meyers Jr. in most of the above mentioned episodes.
The way he's reading the hatemail during I&S&M is really a highlight of the episode.
I always wonder why the producers stopped making I&S-themed episodes
as they offered great opportunities for self-parody and fourth wall-breaking.
Especially O&W knew how to handle this.
^ I agree about Rocco's voice acting in the show and the mail scene you mentioned; I really like how he delivers the line "that's cold" as a comment to one of the hate letters.
As for why they stopped making Itchy & Scratchy episodes, I almost posted that thought myself. O&W had one I&S episode in each of their seasons and then it just stopped; it must have been that the writers had trouble coming up with new plot ideas for I&S episodes or something.
If people are going to rate the Itchy & Scratchy episodes, here's mine:
The Day the Violence Died
Itchy & Scratchy & Marge
Itchy & Scratchy Land
Itchy & Scratchy: The Movie
The Itchy & Scratchy & Poochie Show
The original Favorite and least favorite by season
Shorts: 1: The Pacifier Watching TV 2: World War III Maggie's Brain 3: Bathtime Scary Movie
Episodes: 1: Krusty Gets Busted The Telltale Head 2: Bart Gets an F The War of the Simpsons 3: Homer at the Bat Separate Vocations 4: Brother From the Same Planet Krusty Gets Kancelled 5: Cape Feare $pringfield 6: Homer Badman Lisa on Ice 7: King-Size Homer Lisa the Iconoclast 8: Simpsoncalifragilisticexpialad'ohcious The Simpsons Spin-Off Showcase 9: Girly Edition The Trouble with Trillions 10: Thirty Minutes Over Tokyo Homer Simpson in: "Kidney Trouble" 11: Guess Who's Coming to Criticize Dinner? Hello Gutter, Hello Fadder 12: HOMЯ Tennis the Menace 13: Tales from the Public Domain She of Little Faith 14: The Dad Who Knew Too Little Helter Shelter 15: The Ziff Who Came to Dinner Bart-Mangled Banner 16: Don't Fear the Roofer She Used to Be My Girl 17: My Fair Laddy The Italian Bob 18: The Haw-Hawed Couple You Kent Always Say What You Want 19: Funeral for a Fiend All About Lisa 20: Gone Maggie Gone Four Great Women and a Manicure 21: The Bob Next Door The Color Yellow 22: Homer Scissorhands How Munched is That Birdie in the Window? 23: The Falcon and the D'ohman A Totally Fun Thing That Bart Will Never Do Again 24: Hardly Kirk-ing What Animated Women Want
Itchy and Scratchy land is funnier than this episode, I honestly have to say. But comparing them on the same level is wrong. Itchy and Scratchy land and Itchy and Scratchy the movie do not feature Roger Meyers and his crew suffering production problems.
Wow I went to delete one of the double post I made and deleted both of them. Should've just edited the post I guess.
This week's episode is one of about 15 episodes in the shows history that I consider perfect. It is Swartzwelder's tightest script and it still surprises me that episodes in a TV show's second season are able to be so extremely complex and inquisitive. There is no real answer of the conflict but rather lets the viewer decide for themselves. The satire while in the forefront is subtle in the way it's shown.
There is one thing I really enjoy about season 2 episodes and it's the showcase of Homer and Marge's relationship. It seems so simple Homer is the bread winner while Marge simply runs the house and works much harder than Homer. But underneath this there is a really unexposed relationship. It's so realistic with Homer wanting to be the man of the house by building something as easy as a spice rack but he is unable to despite spending a vast ammount of money of manuals to build things. Homer is quintessentially the modern man. He is helpless when it comes to doing other simple things such as cooking which is apparent in the scene with the TV dinners. But I think a main aspect of this episode that is overlooked is Marge's life. It seems like she is just like any other crusading mother but I think it is much more than that. It is shown in earlier episodes(Fast Lane/Way We was) that she craves something other than the sub servant mother role. she is extremely intelligent and I think it is brilliantly showcased in this episode(again in the TV dinner scene). With SNUH she finally gets to escape the chains of the house and change the world like she wanted to(The Way We Was). The whole dynamic between Homer and Marge in this episode is what makes the show so great and blows my mind upon every viewing.
The satirical elements in this episode are so well done it seems almost unreal. It's probably the best work of satire(except maybe Badman) that the show had ever seen. You can see the clear difference in the way they handle satire in the second season compared to season 1 or even the rest of the seasons. It's done in such a thought provoking way. There is no clear good/bad way of thinking as both sides of the arguments have their faults which are brought out in the debates on Smartline. Of course on the side of free speech you have Roger Myers/Monroe and Brockman. But two of them of course are going to have blatant biases working in the television industry. Of course they seem to be the "winners" of the debates but the debates themselves are set up for them to seem victorious. The satire really stick nowadays because of shit like O'Reily factor and what not. Myers even uses seemingly unrelated lines to convince Brockman that he is right(as the moderator of the debate Brockman's view should be open it of course isn't). Comparing the crusades as a argument that there will always violence is laughable but so easy to fall for. But while Marge would seem to be the crusader for good she is not. She is completely hypocritical in that she says violence isn't free speech yet a statue because it was built by a master of art should be praised and respected(even though it contains nudity) because she likes it. Of course her motives weren't that to make sure no one could make anything offensive but you can't have your cake and eat it too. But again she is set up on Smartline to look stupid and simply says a line that makes the viewer really think with" I guess one person can make a difference but most of the time they shouldn't." It's brilliant because it gives no concrete answer to the conflict. Is cartoon violence senseless or free expression? Is David a masterpiece of filth or of art? No answer is given but rather lets you decide where you stand on the issue. Of course the most biting satire of the whole episode resides in the way the children act about the cartoons. They are obviously influenced by the works of Itchy and Scratchy which is apparent in the brilliant Psycho parody and the way Maggie acts the remainder of the episode. But what is great is the way Bart and Lisa react to Marge's thoughts about the cartoons. The robot line is a great scene and really shows how Lisa is such a complex character because we all know she is extremely intelligent yet she answers the question with such innocent way that Marge seems unable to answer it. I&S being Lisa's favourite TV show is another layer to her character that would be discussed in later episodes as well. Then of course there is the way the kids act when Itchy and Scratchy lose their edge porch pals etc. The kids seems to create a better world for themselves but we all know this is so unrealistic it is what makes that scene so memorable(along with the cool animation job). It is the ideal world for the parents because the kids are no longer any trouble and they act like adults say they used to as kids. It is of course just going to fail because this world is to complex for such an easy solution. Lastly the final really says a great deal. Everyone has reverted back to the tv and the violence(Maggie shooting Homer's picture)but here's where I think the episode has a real Simpsonan feel in that everyone has abandoned everything for TV yet will soon be forced to be indulged by a great work of art(David) It's fucking brilliant.
But while this episode is heavy on the satirical elements it doesn't sacrifice anything that makes a Simpsons episode so perfect. The characters even the guest stars are relatable. Marge in her quest to help her kids/Bart and Lisa's innocence/Homer and his love of I&S/Myers and his freedom of speech. Everyone has a different view yet it's easy to understand them and in turn is infinitely relatable. The story is tightly woven and leaves nothing left unfulfilled and it only had 1 PLOT. They didn't need to mess up the story by adding a maze of unconnected plots. Lastly the humor is never lost. It has many great I&S cartoons, Homer watching I&S, porch pals and even the smart line debates are hilarious
For this weekend I would like to choose an episode rarely mentioned in any Simpsons forums (Such as NHC) This is an episode you probably wouldn't have ever thought about reviewing so that is why I chose it, and the episode being reviewed will be...
The season 9 episode "This Little Wiggy"
Pretty good choice Comicshow! I am already looking forward to Saturday.
PS: Just so you know after reading your first paragraph I thought you were gonna pick a Clip Show so you scared me there! This is obviously a better choice.
Nice choice of episode, MolemanBob; you went with a Ralph Wiggum episode.
Oh and by the way, here's a question for you, Financial Panther: how come you rank 'The Day The Violence Died' the highest of the Itchy & Scratchy-themed episode?
Last edited by CousinMerl; 06-29-2011 at 12:46 PM.
I think Lampwick is a great character, and I like the overall conflict, with the entire debate about the creation of the cartoon. And I think that Lester and Eliza bring just the right aura of mystery to the end of the episode.
How well does everyone think this episode stacks up against the other media satires i.e Radio Bart, Homer Badman etc? Which episode is the overall better episode and which of the episodes uses their satire the most effectively?
Homer Badman is probably the highest episode on my all time list in regards to satire in general heavy episodes so I clearly think it is the best. Radio Bart is good, but it never really clicked much with me personally. Maybe I was too young to appreciate it but its satire seems to be linked to a mass hysteria over kids falling down wells that I don't seem to notice much anymore. I mean yes the media is still quick to react when bad things happen to kids but that episode in general just doesn't come off as sharp to me as it probably should. That said the setup with the microphone and the celebrity sing along are both great.
EDIT: So to answer your actual question I'd put Itchy & Scratchy & Marge in between the two personally.
I as well have it in the order of Badman>I&S&M>Radio Bart but I give everyone of those episodes A+'s and are all in my top 20. But I do think that I&S&M has a more unique form of satire it's subtlety makes it special along with it never really giving you a clear answer to the questions the episode brings out. But Homer Badman and Radio Bart satirical elements are almost over the top in their zaniness.
For Radio Bart it's much more than mass hysteria about children it's about how media exploits tragedies like that and how a kid doing something stupid(falling down a well) can be portrayed as a hero the child acts like the town wants him to. When the town discovers it's Bart who has actually falls down the well the town ignores him and the story if taken out of the paper in turn for a story about a squirrel that looks like Abe Lincoln. Also the whole celebrity edge to the episode is what makes it the episode. It's brilliant how they use a tragedy for their own benefit(hit singles etc). Have you ever seen the move Ace in the Hole? The episode is based on that movie. I mean you don't need to have seen the film to really love this episode but maybe that's why you didn't like it as much.
Haven't seen Ace in the Hole no, but I definitely appreciate the episode. I merely mean it isn't in my top 20 personal favorites or anything, probably not even my top 50 honestly but that I don't actually know at the moment. And I clearly didn't do a good job of it but I always understood the satire regarding how the media hones in on tragedies and milks them dry.
I'm late on this, but I figured I'd speak a few thoughts before it's time to review the next one.
Itchy & Scratchy & Marge is a great example of season 2 getting increasingly better upon repeat viewings, especially when it slips under the radar in terms of reputation. It's an episode that does an excellent job being both humourous and with an engaging story.
Plenty of individual bits are memorable as well, serving both as importnat pieces in the episodes taking place and as entertaining standalone scenes. The Psycho parody is bang-on and really carries a nice edge within the grounded season 2 world, the heavily censored Itchy & Scratchy cartoons are classic, and then there's the breathtaking animation sequence involving the kids rediscovering outdoor play (critics of season 2's animation need to note this).
The characters are all understandable in their roles, whether it be Homer's relative indifference despite being the victim of impressionable Maggie or Bart and Lisa rejecting the attack on their favourite show. While Marge is a bit of a mouthpiece, I think it works because they're making fun of her in many ways while also demonstrating why she is responding the way she is. I liked that this episode was able to tap into the hypocrisy of censorship while also leaving lingering questions much like that which exist in society. On the one hand, you have instances where it seems like excessive violence is having a detrimental effect (Maggie), but on the other hand Bart and Lisa seem to be able to absorb their program without being harmed.
Regarding other Itchy & Scratchy episodes, I'd put this one up there with Itchy & Scratchy Land (not nearly as deep, but IMO easily one of the best gagfests of the series) and Itchy & Scratchy: The Movie (focusing more on the father-son relationship, with plenty of great character moments). They're all quite different episodes, but they're all brilliant and entertaining in their own way in my books.
Itchy & Scratchy & Marge gets a 5/5 (A).
In terms of the three satirical episodes mentioned, I'd probably put Homer Badman first (I can't resist an episode that superbly satirizes media sensationalism), then this, then Radio Bart (which is certainly one I appreciate as well, but I think censorship and sensationalism are slightly more deserving targets).
Last edited by Nauru-1; 06-30-2011 at 01:56 PM.
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