S7 vs S8

[Mr Black]

The first scene also with Bart using the speaker phones was another great scene. Nothing really wrong with it for me.

[TheForbiddenDonut]

Nobody said Homer's behavior in this episode was a Scully invention

and i didn't come close to implying that that's what anyone said. actually completely different from what i said, which is that it is highly unlikely that Homer's Enemy became Scully's cherished inspiration for his Homer bastardization. i really don't get where Homer's Enemy Homer behavior being a 'Scully invention' comes from based on what i wrote.

but I said the writers tried writing Homer in an overly-stupid manner and that became an en vouge thing to do. If it's anyone's fault, I'd say it was Oakley and Weinstein's.

or Mirkin before them. i don't think there's much of a case for a period of deteriorating Homer behavior between Homer's Enemy and the start of Scully's tenure (hence why i don't believe making Homer overly stupid became a 'trendy' thing to do), and if Homer's Enemy never existed, i'd say there's hardly any reason to believe that Scully's Homer any differently. even if one could make the case that he was following a previously established characterization, quite a handful of Mirkin episodes are just as valid points of reference as Homer's Enemy.

[i.used.jell]

Having just got season eight for Christmas (thanks little sis.) it's fresher in my mind than season seven. Even still, I think seven is better conceived and more fully realised than eight. I am tempted to go as far as saying that nine (of which I also have had on DVD for not that long) is a little better than eight too (oops I just did).

Season Eight (1996-1997)
Treehouse of Horror VII (4F02) –
You Only Move Twice (3F23) √
The Homer They Fall (4F03) –
Burns, Baby Burns (4F05) –
Bart After Dark (4F06) √
A Milhouse Divided (4F04) √
Lisa's Date with Density (4F01) –
Hurricane Neddy (4F07) x
El Viaje Misterioso de Nuestro Homer (3F24) –
The Springfield Files (3G01) √
The Twisted World of Marge Simpson (4F08) x
Mountain of Madness (4F10) –
Simpsoncalifragilisticexpiala(Annoyed Grunt)cious (3G03) –
The Itchy & Scratchy & Poochie Show (4F12) –
Homer's Phobia (4F11) –
The Brother From Another Series (4F14) –
My Sister, My Sitter (4F13) √
Homer vs. the Eighteenth Amendment (4F15) √
Grade School Confidential (4F09) –
The Canine Mutiny (4F16) –
The Old Man and the Lisa (4F17) √
In Marge We Trust (4F18) √
Homer's Enemy (4F19) √
The Simpsons Spin-off Showcase (4F20) –
The Secret War of Lisa Simpson (4F21) x




Season Seven (1995-1996)
Who Shot Mr. Burns? (Part Two) (2F20) √
Radioactive Man (2F17) √
Home Sweet Home-Diddily-Dum-Doodily (3F01) √
Bart Sells His Soul (3F02) √
Lisa the Vegetarian (3F03) –
Treehouse of Horror VI (3F04) √
King Size Homer (3F05) √
Mother Simpson (3F06) √
Sideshow Bob's Last Gleaming (3F08) √
The Simpsons 138th Episode Spectacular (3F31) –
Marge Be Not Proud (3F07) √
Team Homer (3F10) √
Two Bad Neighbors (3F09) √
Scenes from the Class Struggle in Springfield (3F11) √
Bart the Fink (3F12) √
Lisa the Iconoclast (3F13) √
Homer the Smithers (3F14) √
The Day the Violence Died (3F16) √
A Fish Called Selma (3F15) √
Bart on the Road (3F17) √
22 Short Films About Springfield (3F18) √
Raging Abe Simpson and his Grumbling Grandson in "The Curse of the Flying Hellfish" (3F19) √
Much Apu About Nothing (3F20) √
Homerpalooza (3F21) x
Summer of 4 Ft. 2 (3F22) √




x (0) = poor
– (0.5) = average
√ (1) = good


Season 8 = 15.5

Season 7 = 23

Only my opinion, but jeezly’-crow-ouch.

PS. How anyone could think The Twisted World of Marge Simpson is better than Scenes from the Class Struggle in Springfield, I really don’t know.

[qwertyuio]

Lisa dealing with acceptance: Summer of 4 Ft. 2

The Secret War of Lisa Simpson is such a poorly conceived work that clearly tries to strike lightning twice, borrowing the same ideas from Summer of 4 ft. 2 and setting itself up as the season finale. Summer of 4 ft. 2 envelops itself with such particular nostalgic and atmospheric visual details that make its rather by-the-numbers (though highly effective) fitting in story a treasure that really gets at the idea of summer vacation as a flashbulb romanticized adventure in which a person can successfully reinvent his or herself and leave the heavily entrenched sameness of home behind. The Secret War of Lisa Simpson trades in the enchantment of the beach with the blandness of a military school. It's a paltry underdeveloped story about how Bart makes friends, excludes Lisa, and then pulls through for her in the end, a predictable, and knowingly so, after school special about prevailing fraternal love.

Have to disagree. The Secret War Of Lisa Simpson is not Summer Of 4 Ft 2. Not the same idea, not the same conflict and not even the same motivations. The line that relates both episodes is as thin as the phrase describing the duel: "Lisa dealing with acceptance".

While Summer Of 4 Ft 2 is about Lisa's difficulties to find somebody who understands and respects her despite being different, The Secret War Of Lisa Simpson shows her being bullied just because of random, out of her control reasons. She could try a new look in the season 7 episode and actually be relatively successful in her attempts to be accepted, and in fact does; however, when she's being hated because of external reasons like in the season 8 one, there's no chance to sort it out. Nobody in the military school knows who Lisa is, they only meet a quite clumsy version of her in the training. Despite I prefer Summer Of 4 Ft 2, I think the conflict in this episode is meant to be much more devastating and darker, because it deals with an insolvable situation: whatever she does and tries, she'll be heartlessly rejected. I think it has to do more with Bart The General, which is basically a similar story with Bart as the main character, and generates the same helplessness feeling in such an adverse situation.

You are selling the conflict in Bart's eyes and I think that is not the purpose of the episode, at all. Except for the first act, it's focused on Lisa and it's her problem. Bart is just the guy who doesn't know how to act, and I think his dilemma is not shorter or more or less developed than it's meant to be (he is in fact an "observer" more than a main character). And yes, the ending is sappy and the story may be branded as manipulative, but IMO it's not really anything that exceeds the standards of typical Simpson-ish emotion, and for that reason I don't get the harsh comments about the plotline.

[TheForbiddenDonut]

Have to disagree. The Secret War Of Lisa Simpson is not Summer Of 4 Ft 2. Not the same idea, not the same conflict and not even the same motivations. The line that relates both episodes is as thin as the phrase describing the duel: "Lisa dealing with acceptance".

given that few episodes deal exclusively with Lisa's social difficulties, i'd say it's not as thin a comparison as you are making it out to be. given that both episodes not only involve a very explicit conflict between Bart's popularity and Lisa's exclusion, as well as Bart's having to come to terms with helping out his sister, i'd say Oakley and Weinstein were definitely shooting for an off-shoot of Summer of 4 ft. 2

While Summer Of 4 Ft 2 is about Lisa's difficulties to find somebody who understands and respects her despite being different, The Secret War Of Lisa Simpson shows her being bullied just because of random, out of her control reasons. She could try a new look in the season 7 episode and actually be relatively successful in her attempts to be accepted, and in fact does; however, when she's being hated because of external reasons like in the season 8 one, there's no chance to sort it out. Nobody in the military school knows who Lisa is, they only meet a quite clumsy version of her in the training. Despite I prefer Summer Of 4 Ft 2, I think the conflict in this episode is meant to be much more devastating and darker, because it deals with an insolvable situation: whatever she does and tries, she'll be heartlessly rejected. I think it has to do more with Bart The General, which is basically a similar story with Bart as the main character, and generates the same helplessness feeling in such an adverse situation.

all that is pretty much why i find Summer of 4 ft 2 infinitely superior, because it has to do with Lisa's individuality and very fleshed out social dynamics. the 'random out-of-control bullying,' given it has no real personal basis, seems infinitely more like a writer's ploy. it's far from an insolvable situation, because it is solved in the end by the phony and predictable Bart-disregards-his-social-clique-to-root-for-his-sister conclusion. Lisa is made fun of for being a clumsy girl. ok i guess that's sort of a bummer but compared to being mocked and disregarded by people who know you for your individuality in favor of a brother who gets attention solely for misbehavior it's nothing.

You are selling the conflict in Bart's eyes and I think that is not the purpose of the episode, at all. Except for the first act, it's focused on Lisa and it's her problem. Bart is just the guy who doesn't know how to act, and I think his dilemma is not shorter or more or less developed than it's meant to be (he is in fact an "observer" more than a main character). And yes, the ending is sappy and the story may be branded as manipulative, but IMO it's not really anything that exceeds the standards of typical Simpson-ish emotion, and for that reason I don't get the harsh comments about the plotline.

Lisa's dilemma is so lame and comparatively not fleshed out at all. she is sent briefly to a military school, populated by 'characters' that are deliberate inventions of the writers to unanimously deride Lisa. it's pretty much 'Bart makes friends out of a pool of hollow constructs and Lisa doesn't.' in Summer of 4 ft 2 Lisa's dilemma pertained to specific aspects of her identity. just one example is her meticulous yearbook design and organization getting completely overlooked by her classmates. that's a far more personal blow than being made fun of by people who she has no reason to expect friendship or attention from. and the third act is certainly all about Bart's internal conflict over whether to stay comfortably within his social clique or root for Lisa and risk exclusion, and this conflict is made painfully obvious by the incessant close-ups on his face throughout the entire sequence.

[Mr Black]

Summer of 4 ft 2 and The Secret War..etc are not at all similar. In the secret war, Lisa wanted a challenge, to be pushed. She at first found it hard but rose to the challenge, thanks to Barts' help.

Whereas in Summer, Bart was against Lisa's search for popularity and acceptance.

[TheForbiddenDonut]

Whereas in Summer, Bart was against Lisa's search for popularity and acceptance.

uh... and this wasn't the case in The Secret War in some respect?

in each episode, Bart starts out as a hindrance to Lisa's acceptance, and then ends up helping her out in the end. same exact thing in each episode. to say they are not at all similar is simply... wrong. obviously each one is framed differently (Secret War is infinitely shallower), but each one is about Lisa's social insecurities compared to Bart's social security and his eventual decision to help her out against all odds. and that's far more specific a similarity than saying 'each one is about Lisa and acceptance.'

[zitro]

green: 1 pt for S7 (2 if bolded)
Red: 1 pt for S8 (2 if bolded)

I&S ep.: "The Day the Violence Died"

Experimental ep.: "22 Short Films About Springfield"
Mystery ep.: "Who Shot Mr. Burns? Part 2"
Lisa and her environmental beliefs: "Lisa the Vegetarian"
Hard being a kid: "Bart Sells His Soul"
Homer and teamwork: "Team Homer"
Marge wanting something else: Both on the weak side
Marge’s moral compass: "In Marge We Trust"
Simpsons and the law: "Homer vs. the Eighteenth Amendment"
Love between secondary characters: "Grade School Confidential"
Burns dealing with the consequences of his past: "The Curse of the Flying Hellfish'
THOH ep.: "Treehouse of Horror VI"
Milhouse ep.: "Radioactive Man"
Flanders ep.: Both great
Sideshow Bob ep.: Don't remember them much.
Experimental ep.: "The Simpsons 138th Episode Spectacular"
Bart and adult stuff: Both Great
Bart and money: "Bart the Fink"
Homer at the plant: "King-Size Homer"
Homer and a new job: "Homer the Smithers"
Emotional Homer: "Mother Simpson"
Homer and his beliefs: "Homer's Phobia"
Lisa vs her beliefs: both very good.
Lisa dealing with acceptance: "Summer of 4 Ft. 2"
Neighbourhoods: "You Only Move Twice"

[zitro]

green: 1 pt for S7 (2 if bolded)
Red: 1 pt for S8 (2 if bolded)

I&S ep.: "The Day the Violence Died"

Experimental ep.: "22 Short Films About Springfield"
Mystery ep.: "Who Shot Mr. Burns? Part 2"
Lisa and her environmental beliefs: "Lisa the Vegetarian"]
Hard being a kid: "Bart Sells His Soul"
Homer and teamwork: "Team Homer"
Marge wanting something else: Both on the weak side
Marge’s moral compass: "In Marge We Trust"
Simpsons and the law: "Homer vs. the Eighteenth Amendment"
Love between secondary characters: "Grade School Confidential"
Burns dealing with the consequences of his past: "The Curse of the Flying Hellfish'
THOH ep.: "Treehouse of Horror VI"
Milhouse ep.: "Radioactive Man"
Flanders ep.: Both great
Sideshow Bob ep.: Don't remember them much.
Experimental ep.: "The Simpsons 138th Episode Spectacular"
Bart and adult stuff: Both Great
Bart and money: "Bart the Fink"
Homer at the plant: "King-Size Homer"
Homer and a new job: "Homer the Smithers"
Emotional Homer: "Mother Simpson"
Homer and his beliefs: "Homer's Phobia"
Lisa vs her beliefs: both very good.
Lisa dealing with acceptance: "Summer of 4 Ft. 2"
Neighbourhoods: "You Only Move Twice"

Season 7: 20 points (landslide win)
Season 8: 6 points

But I'm aware that i consider S8 among the weaker classic seasons.

[Nauru-1]

I do agree that Summer of 4'2'' is definitely the better episode of the two and that it most certainly reaches deeper. However, I'm not convinced at all that the Secret War of Lisa Simpson is a poor episode at all. The emotion is still infinitely better used than in later years IMO, and I found it to be consistently funny as well.

As critical as I am of modern Simpsons, I can accept a lot if I thoroughly enjoy something, which I do with Secret War. At the very least, I would be enthralled if I found newer episodes to be as consistently entertaining on that level.

[Mr Black]

uh... and this wasn't the case in The Secret War in some respect?

What? When was Bart ever against Lisa's search for acceptance? Bart encouraged Lisa to stay at the military school. Sure, Bart tried to make his own friends and stay away from her, but he was never against her.

[hammster]

Season 7 hands down. Probably because it has the episodes I remember from childhood and which I could relate to (Bart sells his soul, Summer of 4ft2 and Radioactive man) and episodes that I talked about for hours with family and friends (Lisa the Iconoclast,The Simpsons 138th Episode Spectacular, 22 shorts films about Springfield and Who shot Mr Burns pt.2). Most influential TV season of anything on my life, ever.

[TheForbiddenDonut]

What? When was Bart ever against Lisa's search for acceptance? Bart encouraged Lisa to stay at the military school. Sure, Bart tried to make his own friends and stay away from her, but he was never against her.

he was against her in that he deliberately refused to acknowledge her in any social environment and stood by passively while his friends made fun of her. sure it's not wishful cruelty, but it is indirect cruelty, and he is a definite hindrance to her acceptance by refusing to risk his place in his group of friends to help her out. which is the entire third act conflict.