Rate/Review Moe 'N' A Lisa

[luben]

^ I was thinking about 'Milhouse doesn't live here anymore' too when I watched that scene, because, clearly it's the same type of ending, with Jameson saying 'That's sweet!'. Anyway, as stated before, in this episode the conflict between Moe and Lisa wasn't to take too seriously, and the reconciliation between the two was more lighthearted than in MDLHA, so I felt it fitted better in this episode. I was just annoyed by the fact that it's always the same gag repeated over and over.

If they make really tired, lazy conflict but create every plot device in such a tongue-in-cheek way that the drama is intentionally undermined, does it make sense to criticize the drama as being auto-pilot and weak? I mean, this felt like Jean mocking his own pet devices. The writers' characterization when asking Moe where he got his title is so one-dimensionally exaggerated that it's impossible to see how Moe could say anything besides what he does; then in turn, Moe asking Lisa to throw together another poem is so one-dimensional on Moe's heartlessness that it's too comical to be taken seriously. People already mentioned the "marginalized my contribution" line, and on top of that, Lisa's crying is undermined by seeing the writers on the hayride in the background.

I really don't know what to make of this episode anymore. I often think the Jean era takes its lame, hackneyed plots too seriously, but to what extent is this episode making fun of lame, hackneyed plots and to what extent is it just a lame, hackneyed plot? And if it is making fun of them, does that make it good?

Frankly, I think this is the style of the show nowadays. Looking at the late episodes from last season (but maybe even before), there are some episodes that I think have a weak plot (or plot pionts) intentionally, to make the point that the whole thing they were satirizing had weak bases, or just to make humor with it.
But that's my problem with the show now. I mean, if they wanted to mock the writer's partners complaining about not getting enough credit, they didn't need to make a weak plot about it, pointing out how silly it was, because in this way they sacrified story and characterizations for the sake of satire. The episode wasn't bad, but in the classic era we had great satirical episodes (Two Cars in Every Garage, Three Eyes on Every Fish, Sideshow Bob Roberts, Homer: Bad Man) that managed to make satire without sacrifying story and characters. Making a weak story with questionable characterizations in order to jab the subject of the episode is a lazy way to make satire. For example I think they didn't need to make a story with Moe as the praised writer and Lisa as his not credited partner, because in this way they subtracted depth to Lisa and made a weak story. They could have done a story with a one-timer playing the role of the overlooked partner, and so they would have been free to make a caricature of it. And maybe Lisa could have been the supporting character who tried to help him to get credited, mocking the literary world time to time.

[simplysimpsons]

Well, I was impressed with this one. The old folks olympics was pretty hilarious, and would have been out-right great except for that dumb flying scene. That was just too over the top for the show, and was a 'what the hell...?' scene. Grim reaper and 'stop that hippy crap!' were very funny, though.

The main story started well enough, the crab scene and Homer's rapping tomato poem being the funniest things I've seen in a few years. But there was some really poor moments like Homer drink driving, falling down the stairs and his annoying insults to Moe. I thought instantly of Bart's 'You love a boy!' from I Am Furious Yellow when Homer said 'You love a man!' to Moe in this one, except the former really worked while the latter was incredibly awkward.

Why, why, did the writers have to go the easy route of another conflict? I know it was sort of plausible Moe would take credit, but I could easily see it coming (and Lisa crying as a result). Something like Moe becoming a victim of his own success would have been tougher to write, but we could have had the best episode of the season if they went that (or a different) way. The rest of the episode was peppered with some very good jokes, and was pretty good, but I sort of knew what was going to happen. It seems to have become a tired staple of the show these days.

Overall, I still think this is my favourite episode of the season so far, mainly because of the sheer amount of good humour. The plot was pretty good as well, and I didn't find the guest stars that bad at all. Overall a B

I agree with scottvivian: That fast talking editor shattered the sweet ending into pieces, just like the ending in Milhouse Doesn't Live Here Anymore, and although he was funny the first time his second appearance left a bad taste, and wasn't at all funny either. I did like the credits scene, though.

[Cartoonnetwork]

I didn't say nothing about the J. Jonah Jameson sequences in my review. I think the first one was ok, but too long. It would have been more difficult to catch the reference if it was shorter. I'm not too much into Spiderman and in the first minutes I didn't know it was a parody, but when it continues I started to remember "oh yeah, that guy in Spiderman". It's probably better to do things a little less obvious. But, on the other hand, I don't think the fact that he mentioned Spiderman in the final scene was so bad. It made it more obvious, but it was worth it because of the "poems about spiderman" line. The final rant was funnier and shorter and made for a good ending. If not for the simmilarity with MDLHA it would have been an original ending (I only remember one similar ending in classic era, the one in Saturdays Of Thunder, and it was not the same...the ending to Three Gays Of The Condo had some simmilarities too).

I didn't feel it was the best way to end the story, though, cause Moe and Lisa final scene was poor and it could have benefit for a better and, perhaps, longer dialogue. But at least the J.Jonah Jameson scene provided a good laugh and his very last line was sharp.

[Cartoonnetwork]

Why, why, did the writers have to go the easy route of another conflict? I know it was sort of plausible Moe would take credit, but I could easily see it coming (and Lisa crying as a result). Something like Moe becoming a victim of his own success would have been tougher to write, but we could have had the best episode of the season if they went that way.

Exactly, I would have loved to see that. Luben's idea of having a one-timer playing the role of the overlooked partner could have worked too, but it would have been difficult to tell the story with Moe, the overlooked partner and Lisa in it. And they always try to include OFF members in the story. Although episodes like A Fish Called Selma were very good with OFF in a "minor" role.

However, Moe becoming a victim of his own success seems like something interesting for his particular character and Lisa could have played a role in the story too. She could have been there trying to help. Even if there were a similar conflict, Moe forgetting about Lisa's contribution and becoming arrogant it would have been more interesting to dedicate more time to see how Moe goes up and then how he falls down, and Lisa's feelings could have been a minor detail. Even if this way it could have been even more similar in structure to Flaming Moe's the conflict between Lisa and Moe could have been resolved with a good and longer conversation at the end. At least the part about becoming a victim of his own success would have been different
to Flaming Moe's and almost a completely new conflict (I guess there is something of it in Bart Gets Famous, but still).

[Number 10767]

Frankly, I think this is the style of the show nowadays. Looking at the late episodes from last season (but maybe even before), there are some episodes that I think have a weak plot (or plot pionts) intentionally, to make the point that the whole thing they were satirizing had weak bases, or just to make humor with it.

Really? Can you give examples of this? I think recent dramatic plot points have taken themselves pretty seriously, really. They're cheesy and cliche, and maybe the writers realize it, but the tongue is not in the cheek. I mean, those infamous lines everyone makes fun of such as "You're the real endangered species" or something like that, they don't seem to be meant as parody.

[luben]

^ Yeah, I'm curious too, what the fuck was I thinking about while writing that thing?

At the moment I can think out these:

Girls Just Want to Have Sums. For example in this episode Lisa became successful in mathematics immediately after she's learnt to behave like a boy. There's no development of her learning mathematics, she became successful a second later having fitted in the boys' school. It's very silly or lacking in development if you don't see it as a jab to the theory according to which the reason why girls are not as good as boys in mathematics is because of their different social behavior.

The Monkey Suit. The entire episode focussed more in mocking people that take too seriously the fight between creationism and evolutionism rather than develop the discussion in a logical way. Also the resolution of it, with Homer being considered the missing proof of evolutionism, is just too silly to be taken seriously, unless it suggests that the whole discussion was silly to start with.

From this season:

Please Homer Don't Hammer 'Em. Well, the way Homer and Marge try to avoid people's believes about the incapacity of women to do man's works is ridiculous, like the resolution, suggesting that the whole subject of the episode was not too serious.

[Number 10767]

^ Hmm. I suppose those might toe the line of self-mockery, but I would be more inclined to write them off as just lazy plot devices rather than tongue-in-cheek irony. The sense I got from those scenes was that they weren't quite in the same league as the ones Moe'n'a Lisa.

[Channel Surfer]

^ Hmm. I suppose those might toe the line of self-mockery, but I would be more inclined to write them off as just lazy plot devices rather than tongue-in-cheek irony. The sense I got from those scenes was that they weren't quite in the same league as the ones Moe'n'a Lisa.

Agreed. I also will add that what made this particular episode was the frequency that the characters and scenes attempted to undermine any sincerity the plot may have had, not just the fact that there was a self-referential nod to a plot hole or two. I mean, the "Thanks for swinging by the house Reverend" line in "In Marge We Trust" is clearly self-aware, but the episode still takes itself seriously. There was little about this episode that seemed to suggest it took the main conflict too seriously, other than the fact that it went through the motions of a formulaic Jean plot.

The only thing though is that for as knowingly weak the episode seemed to realize its plot was, there still isn't any coherent point or reason to undermine it other than just to point out its a weak plot. Which is still lame IMO, in a way similar to how the CBG scenes were lame in "Saddlesore Galactica", minus any attempt to spice it up with Jockey Trolls thankfully.

[luben]

Ok, I think I can see your points. I think I've a little misunderstood the first post (#87). I was talking about plots or plot points that I think have been made intentionally weak, in order to make satire or mockeries, not specifically self-mockery at the weak plot of the episodes. I'm leaning toward not to consider the former ones just lazy-writing (even if I think they are), but more like the style the writers want to give to the show nowadays, and I think we are now in this trend.

Anyway I agree that in Moe 'N' A Lisa self-mockery is more explicit and the characters seem to want intentionally undermine the plot.

[grissom]

Full review:
There were a whole slew of things this episode did not do right. Yet strangely there were also some brilliant gags here and there. Unfortunately though, as in many recent episodes, the overwhelming bad overpowers the tiny amount of good. I almost felt like I was watching Family Guy as I sat through this. There were more over-extended gags than I've ever seen in a Simpsons episode, a lame emotional conflict, and some of the worst character usage in the past few seasons. This episode not only made me angry because it was just typical bland season 18 crap, but I was infuriated by the fact that this didn't even feel like a Simpsons episode.

If there has ever been joke writing on The Simpsons worse than this, someone please point it out to me. Even Scully and his team of idiots didn't have writing that sucked this bad. The abundance of over-extended, over-explained and just generally horrible jokes made this episode feel like watching a train wreck in slow motion. It's widely understood that the general demographic that The Simpsons reaches for no longer wants clever or intelligent comedy. They're far more interested in downright lunacy crammed with as many swears and sex references as the FCC will allow. Toss in some nonsensical jokes where stuff happens over and over again and a few shallow characters involved in stupid conflicts no one gives a damn about and you've got a ratings success. Until now, The Simpsons has stayed relatively clear of this Family Guy-ish school of comedy. The writers have had more intelligent and genuinely funny things to focus on. Apparently now that ideal has shifted. Instead of writing some real jokes with a plot that makes sense and some realistic emotion, the staff has decided to follow the crowd and cave in to this crap.

If there's one thing I hoped The Simpsons would never do, it was this. I don't expect to watch a Simpsons episode, even a new one, and see moronic jokes like these. First and foremost, there were the horrible repeating gags, like Homer and Bart scuttling like crabs, Homer making annoying noises while tasting syrup, and perhaps the worst of all: the "I'll drive between sips" scene. Not only was that a perfect example of a terrible joke to begin with, I don't find anything about drunk driving funny in the least. Call me biased because I had a relative I never got to meet because she was killed by a drunk driver before I was born, but drunk driving isn't a joke. It's not something to laugh at. Next up is the simple over-explaining of a joke that was fine on it's own. Perfect example: Homer's remark about the massage chair, then Moe replying that it was just filled with cockroaches and proceeding to cut it open and watch bugs flow out all over the floor. I might've laughed at that gag if they had just left it at Moe's line. I didn't need to actually see the bugs. I got the point. Is the American public actually stupid enough to not fully understand that joke without actually seeing the bugs, or was this just another lazy timewaster? Either way, it sucked. You may be thinking that it's too early to be saying that The Simpsons is becoming a Family Guy clone, and I semi-agree with you. I don't think it's time to panic and start the flow of scathing letters to Fox quite yet, but if this kind of unintelligent idiot humor keeps up, it certainly will be.

Characterization was nearly as bad as the joke writing here. The central conflict with Moe taking credit for Lisa's title felt very contrived and unrealistic. In reality, I very much doubt that authors really care about where other authors get their titles from, or whether they had help on them or not. Considering this very plot device drove Lisa's hatred of Moe, it made very little sense. Moe never really took credit for the arrangement of the first poem either. The only time the conflict made sense was towards the end when Moe outright asked Lisa to write the poem for him so that he could take the credit. At this point, I understood Lisa's anger. Unfortunately, it took most of the episode to get there and lots of time had already been wasted. The other huge problem I had with characterization here was Homer being used as nothing but a gag vehicle. Obviously this was not a Homer focused episode, but it wouldn't make sense for him to not pop up here and there. I don't have any problems with Homer showing up and maybe being used for an occasional joke, but every single time we saw him in this episode he was doing something else really stupid. Homer is not known for being a deep character, and I wasn't expecting any strong emotional growth here, but it would've been nice to have at least a scene or two when he wasn't being a complete idiot.

Oddly, the one thing I really enjoyed about this episode were the guest stars. The authors featured all provided wonderful voices and were actually very funny. They were the one part of the episode that brought me back to the classic era. One of the less discussed, but still important changes between then and now is the treatment of guest stars. Contrary to what most casual fans will probably try to tell you, there were lots of celebrity guest stars who played themselves back in the golden age. The difference was: they were simply written into episodes much better. Back then, guest stars were often written in as a parody of themselves. They were shown to be very quirky, often self centered, and sometimes completely insane. That's why guest stars back then were funny. Nowadays, celebrities often show up for no reason, do a couple of unfunny lines, and add nothing to an episode. The famous authors in this episode were an obvious exception. The sheer absurdity of nearly everything Tom Wolfe did, Gore Vidal and his laughter on tape, and the Jonathan Franzen/Michael Chabon fistfight at the end were nothing short of hilarious. These guys almost single-handedly redeemed this episode from total failure.

If this is the way the rest of season 18 is headed, we're in big trouble. I can't even think of a way to sum this up properly, other than saying that this episode was simply bad. I hope I don't have to right another review like this for a long time. D

[Xt'Tapalatakettle]

Full review:
There were more over-extended gags than I've ever seen in a Simpsons episode, a lame emotional conflict, and some of the worst character usage in the past few seasons.

See: We're on the Road to D'ohwhere. That episode has at least four obvious over-extended gags. I felt the over-extended gags here at least had more pay-off. Yeah, Homer driving drunk was funny for about two seconds, but him falling out of the car at the end of the scene and being captured by the police was certainly funny. The other scene at the end of the episode was not really part of the episode, so I'm not sure if that should count as much since it doesn't disrupt the plot. The conflict was slightly contrived, but it worked within the characters' parameters. As you said, the guest stars by and large saved this one, along with the opening sequence. I think next to Please Homer, this was the best paced episode and suffered the least from the common foibles of the last season and a half.

[W.P.]

Sorry for posting this review so late. This is one I posted on Krustylu Studios and forgive me since I missed the first five minutes of the episode.

This was a very odd episode. I actually really don't know what to think of it. Watching this episode is like finding nuggets of gold in a pile of manure (writing influenced by Moe, sadly). Let's get down to the point: this was not a good episode. It was a bad episode with greatness in it, or a great episode with badness in it. I don't know. Much like the current Simpsons Team itself, I was really bewildered, and I didn't like it.

At first, I thought it was much like last week's average yet very enjoyable effort. Much (and a little too much) like Family Guy, lots and lots of gags. Not all of them worked, but when they did, you would take them over Family Guy any day. But, yes, the plot made no sense at first. Old folks olympics? Seriously, this was just like that Panda thing last week. Awful. If this is where the episode was going, I would probably give it a passable rating of a C or something. But, just as soon as Moe can in, it seemed like this would become an B+ or something good. His lines, tacky and possibly suicidal, were actually darkly funny in a way. The crap walk actually helped this awkward mood in a way. I was also impressed that this episode was not making Moe seem like this surrealy (not a word, but whatever) good poet, but an odd modern writer. Sorry for my lack of words, but I really don't know what to say. This problem will get even worse...

The second act seemed like a watchable Scully episode: annoying Homer, likable Lisa, interesting sub-characters, and unfunny jokes. Now, Homer was way off here. I don't really know what he was. I knew that he was annoying, but really, another pain gag? Give me a friggin' break! This problem was out of my mind as the plot progressed. That parody of the news reporter from Spider-Man was HILARIOUS. Classic era stuff IMO. The guest stars were pretty darn good, too. It was the end of this act, however, that really confused me. Like Joshy mentioned before, it seemed like a forced "Flaming Moe's", with Moe taking all the credit. Lisa's out-of-nowhere crying was pretty strange, too. This part seemed like it was from a completely different episode.

The third act stayed in this odd tone. It wasn't predictable, but it wasn't enjoyable. I am running out of time, got to study, so I'll just say that the show should not take this path since it is just a circle to nowhere. Not impressed.

C

[Disgruntled Goat]

If not for the simmilarity with MDLHA it would have been an original ending (I only remember one similar ending in classic era, the one in Saturdays Of Thunder, and it was not the same...the ending to Three Gays Of The Condo had some simmilarities too).

There was also the "Mayor of Albequerque" thing at the end of Hungry Hungry Homer. And the Three Gays of the Condo ending was exactly the same deal IMO.

[Xt'Tapalatakettle]

There was also the "Mayor of Albequerque" thing at the end of Hungry Hungry Homer. And the Three Gays of the Condo ending was exactly the same deal IMO.

Sounds like some of you can't cope unless the episode ends like the Waltons. :silly:

[Postmaster]

Yeah as they say on the commentary, for Mother Simpson, it's good they didn't kill the emotion, on Raging Abe Simpson, it's a good thing they had a joke and it probably would have been quite awful if they didn't.

But I wonder if people would complain so much if MDLHA ended on a funny joke.

[Cartoonnetwork]

^Perhaps. It was short of original because of the meta-commentary, though. MDLHA was a fantastic episode, I think it was almost as good as Moe Baby Blues, so I think people just complain a little too much.

I also think the episode in this thread is getting too many negative commentaries. Probably everybody is tired of the random quality of the episodes. But Jazzy and The Pussycats, for example, was like four times worse than this episode. And Please Homer, Don't Hammer also had contrived conflict and emotions like Moe 'N' A Lisa. In fact, if you forget about Lisa's reactions I think most of the rest of the episode was pretty decent, at least for this season standards. I don't understand why so many people hated Homer's jokes in this episode. Certainly the falling down the stairs gag was bad, it has this "Homer calling other guy a sissy" type of thing that has never been so funny in classic era to begin with (I guess it was used mostly in some Mirkin episodes) and that seems to be a Jean filler (I remember the overlong one in The President Wore Pearls). This is certainly a dull, dull type of gag, there is never any twist on it, he's saying someone is gay and making fun of it, big deal. Oh, and he falls down the stairs while he's talking about this boring subject, great. This has nothing to do with the "fairy tale" voice. He usually used it to make sarcastic, angry comments wich were actually a lot funnier and showed Homer had some opinion, some thoughts, and he wasn't just a brainless child capable of talking during half and hour about how gay another person is.


Errr...but I was defending the episode and especially Homer's attitude. The rest of his gags were certainly on character. Maybe the drinking and driving gag was a little long, I didn't think it was, myself. It felt like the repetition of it made the gag funnier and it certainly didn't seem as awkward as , say, the hanging on a cliff or Flanders singing gags in Road To D'Ohwhere, both of which literally went forever with little pay-off. And it was a gag that totally fits into Homer's way of thinking. The tomato poem was a funny Homer gag too. The crab scene was hilarious stuff. It could have been shorter but the music used in the scene made it entertaining. And the credits scene features hilarious Homer poses ,perfectly combined with Castellaneta's acting, in Silverman's type of acting. If this is annoying or too long, then the scene when Homer gets mad in The Shinning is annoying and long. And we all know it wasn't.

Homer and Bart's final moment with the syrup was silly. But I don't know if this is characterization or just a weak idea for a comic situation. And it was reminiscent of Flaming Moe since Homer was planning revenge to Moe while standing on a high place. Another moment that didn't quite work for me was the very first gag. Homer's attempt to remember something, especially at the end of the sequence seemed like an attempt to copy the Pick Up Bart scene. But these two gags had little to do with characterization anyway and they were mediocre rather than terrible.

[Wasteland]

Finally got time to watch it, and they mentioned my username in it. My username is from T.S. Eliot's "The Wasteland". Weird.

Anywho, pretty good episode. They didn't really waste Tom Wolfe, but i think they could have done more with Gore Vidal.

4/5.

[Reservoir Dog]

He played a good role. I laughed really hard when he walked out with the childish gift basket. I am still giggling to myself just thinking about it.

[Turambar]

I gave it 4/5. I find there to be lots of good laughs in the episode, I thought the scene when Homer is sipping his beer then driving was a good gag, and and I also liked the, somewhat weird, crab scene.

[George Cauldron]

I gave it 1/5. I found there to be very few laughs in the episode. I did actually enjoy the driving in between sips scene, and I also quite liked the Homer acts like a crab scene, along with the vibrating chair that turns out to be full of cockroaches. Unfortunately, those three scenes were the only moments in the episode that made me smile, and accounted for less than two minutes of the airtime. To suggest that this episode was a disappointment would be something of an understatement. It disappointed on so many levels - humour, plot, emotion, the works. Worst of all, it just wasn't very funny at all. Fair enough, I don't find Moaning Lisa, Two Cars In Every Garage and Three Eyes on Every Fish and Lisa's Substitute all that funny either, but the difference here is that those three examples had charm, they had a watchability factor about them. Moe'N'a Lisa had very little going for it, and I therefore consign it to the rubbish bin of poor Simpsons episodes.

[Stevie V. Scrivello]

It contained the characteristic sweetness that I so yearn for nowadays in Simpsons episodes, plus it was literary!

So, shallow as it may be of me, 5/5

[BASSI]

i like this one, it was really funny 4/5

[Otis P Jivefunk]

Very disappointing. I was looking foward to this episode for so long but I was severely disappointed. What little of the plot which stayed in tact was good, but it was filled with wacky and painful to watch jokes which really detracted from the episode. Just not a good ep in general...

[Imperciph]

I caught this again last night and discovered I probably was too lenient on it last year. Barring a couple of isolated gags or guest appearances which worked well, this one was bad. Character writing was awful, with the dialogue not having a single shred of even attempted subtlety. and while I generally try to be more positive than some of other folks here, the timing and even nature of some of the gags were extremely inadequate. about 1 out of every 3 gags posed me the question of why exactly were they presented as being comedic in nature, and their duration was long for me visit the bathroom and urinate. good lord.

[Moe Nopoly]

I really like this episode. I think the story is ok and has some funny moments too.
And Moe is one of my favorite characters anyway. 4/5

[Tamaki Suoh]

Extremely predictable and manipulative, with tons of failed, cringeworthy jokes and only a couple that were even decent. It's a shame what they did with this one, since Moe is one of my favorite characters and the plot for it actually has potential. Still, a few of the characters' interactions were interesting and most of the characterizations were accurate, at least. 2/5

[Capt Hammer]

5/5 Great Episode some great emotion

3 best bits

1. Eloise
2. Oooo Moe's A Poet
3. Sipping from his beer

[ThatAsianGuy]

I missed it when it came out but eh, 4/5 or B-, not bad compared to some of the other crap from season 18 and I do love Moe showcases.

[Granto]

It was an alright episode, but nothing spectacular about it. Gave it a 2.5 but voted for a 2 becuase I really cant give this a 3.

[sung]

Extremely predictable and manipulative, with tons of failed, cringeworthy jokes and only a couple that were even decent. It's a shame what they did with this one, since Moe is one of my favorite characters and the plot for it actually has potential. Still, a few of the characters' interactions were interesting and most of the characterizations were accurate, at least. 2/5

Exactly this, especially on it being extremely predictable.

Almost two years later I watched it, I think it's much worse than how I used to think back then. I'd give it probably D+/C- now