Homer Simpson in: "Kidney Trouble"

[The Robot Devil]

(Singing) Homer is a jerk. No the plot dosen't work.


2/5

because Homer is such a jerk, and the plot sucks.

[bartyboy]

2/5. It gets bad after Grandpa's kidney explodes

[Duffless]

B+...I liked it

[Frinkahedron]

Yeah I vaguely remember this episode being pretty damn awful though I did rather like like Homer's line 'That's the last time I trust the strangest people on Earth'

1/5

[Ben Chan]

Viva Ned Flanders used to be my least s10 episode, but after rewatching this, only shit it's easily takes the spot. Homer's a jerk at his best, the jokes didn't make sense, the plot went all over the place. It was just a piece of shit. F, third to NKOTB and BMB as the worst episode of all time.

It seems to me, and feel free to disagree, that the main [read: only] reason why one could call Homer a jerk in this episode is because he abandons his dad. Fair enough - except the episode made it very, very clear that he was doing so because he was afraid, not because he was a jerk.

If you're going to use the term 'jerk', please understand exactly what this word means.

[arii]

So... he wasn't a jerk for not pulling over and just letting his father take a piss? Considering all of Grampa's desperate pleading and Homer's nonchalant responses, I dunno, I think it's fair to call Homer a jerk. A lot worse, actually.

[Corruptus in Extremis]

Well, I hated it the last time I saw it. I gave it a 1/5.

[Ben Chan]

So... he wasn't a jerk for not pulling over and just letting his father take a piss? Considering all of Grampa's desperate pleading and Homer's nonchalant responses, I dunno, I think it's fair to call Homer a jerk. A lot worse, actually.

Oh for the love of God it was a 30 second segment of the episode and people are grading the episode F because he was a jerk.

I hereby decree that Bart Sells His Soul shall be graded F because Milhouse is a jerk.

Homer wasn't a jerk for the sake of it there, it was so the leadin to the main story could be funny. Would you have rathered the story begins with Grampa having some kind of banal complication? Boooooring.

Episode probably deserves a B or C - not because Homer is a jerk though, mind.

[The Governor]

Oh for the love of God it was a 30 second segment of the episode and people are grading the episode F because he was a jerk.

I hereby decree that Bart Sells His Soul shall be graded F because Milhouse is a jerk.

Homer wasn't a jerk for the sake of it there, it was so the leadin to the main story could be funny. Would you have rathered the story begins with Grampa having some kind of banal complication? Boooooring.

Episode probably deserves a B or C - not because Homer is a jerk though, mind.

Calm down, homeslice. Homer's jerk-ass attitude towards Abe was a good indication of how he'd behave later in the episode. Heck, if Homer wasn't going to stop and let Abe go pee, what makes us think he'd give a kidney up just out of fear alone?

Also, you don't have to drag the above episodes down to "Kidney's" level just to get your point across.

[arii]

Oh for the love of God it was a 30 second segment of the episode and people are grading the episode F because he was a jerk.

Dude, I wouldn't give the episode an F. I'll actually sorta-defend the episode. I'm just saying that it's inaccurate to say that Homer wasn't a jerk in the episode at all, because he clearly was in the beginning. (I also don't find it comparable with Bart Sells His Soul, because those are two completely different scenarios with two completely different characters and so on and so forth, but it probably doesn't need to be gotten into.) Besides, I can understand that the way it starts off leaves a bad enough taste in people's mouths to just hate Homer for the rest of the episode and oh screw it Jake already covered it.

Regardless, I fail to see what's so comical about refusing to let an old man pee.

[Ankle]

Calm down, homeslice. Homer's jerk-ass attitude towards Abe was a good indication of how he'd behave later in the episode. Heck, if Homer wasn't going to stop and let Abe go pee, what makes us think he'd give a kidney up just out of fear alone?

Also, you don't have to drag the above episodes down to "Kidney's" level just to get your point across.

I didn't even see it as Homer being a jerk. I just saw it as Homer and the family ignoring Grampa, not really paying attention to what he says, because he talks too much anyway. Like in Lisa Vs Malibu Stacey, where they left him locked in the car.

Also, this was the point in the series where Homer's intelligence decreased ("I think Homer gets stupider every year!"), so I don't think Homer even knew the possible penalties for holding in urine. I mean, we've all been busting before - When have our kidneys ever burst? Mind over matter in those situations.

There's no doubt that Homer became a jerk in the series, but with this episode, I think people overreact.

(I typed way too much for this)

[Ben Chan]

Calm down, homeslice. Homer's jerk-ass attitude towards Abe was a good indication of how he'd behave later in the episode. Heck, if Homer wasn't going to stop and let Abe go pee, what makes us think he'd give a kidney up just out of fear alone?

Come on Jake you know that's not a valid argument.

Dude, I wouldn't give the episode an F. I'll actually sorta-defend the episode. I'm just saying that it's inaccurate to say that Homer wasn't a jerk in the episode at all, because he clearly was in the beginning.

Fair point. My beef here though is that people commonly place this episode around the bottom 50 lists because, and only because, Homer was a jerk when again, the only evidence we have for that is a 30 second joke at the beggining of the episode which creates a neat lead in for the rest of the episode!

People need to take these things less seriously and realise that cruel humour is perfectly acceptable so long as it doesn't become commonplace, or unfunny. Homer ruthlessly kicking that woman in Trash of the Titans? Yeah, I'd concede that was a detriment to that episode. In this case? Nah, not really.

Besides, I can understand that the way it starts off leaves a bad enough taste in people's mouths to just hate Homer for the rest of the episode and oh screw it Jake already covered it.

No he didn't. Jakes argument:

Homer was a jerk in the beggining of the episode
Hence, all subsequent examples of Homer being at all jerkish can only be explained through being a jerk

I don't at all agree with that reasoning, if we're going to get into the reasons behind this business (which I'm happy to do, btw).

I didn't even see it as Homer being a jerk. I just saw it as Homer and the family ignoring Grampa, not really paying attention to what he says, because he talks too much anyway. Like in Lisa Vs Malibu Stacey, where they left him locked in the car.

This too. Good point.

[The Governor]

No, what I wrote is valid. Assuming homer was only scared, he wouldn't have became a pissy jerk after the operation and the way he was happy for barts kidney...

Homer was total d-bag in this and because it was "funny" doesn't excuse scullys, er homers behavior.

[Ankle]

No, what I wrote is valid. Assuming homer was only scared, he wouldn't have became a pissy jerk after the operation and the way he was happy for barts kidney...

I don't think that was implying Homer was acting like a jerk. That was just lame writing. The family looked scared before they told Homer they stole his kidney, because they knew he'd be mad. But how did they know? He never showed any signs of anger towards them taking his kidney before that. I'm pretty sure the writers tried to indicate the only reason Homer ran away was due to fear. Not because he was being a jerk.

Yeah, well anyway, you seem to be pretty certain about this, and I haven't seen the episode in years, but I seriously can't remember anything to indicate he was being a jerk. He was simply afraid of dying on the operating table, wasn't he?

[The Governor]

Well, if you want to call it lousy writing, I won't disagree.

Btw I'm on an iPod touch so my replies are quite short at the moment.

[arii]

No he didn't. Jakes argument:

Homer was a jerk in the beggining of the episode
Hence, all subsequent examples of Homer being at all jerkish can only be explained through being a jerk

Okay, that's being really simplistic, though. My interpretation was more along the lines of that Homer was an ass in the beginning; whether or not it was for the purposes of a joke, he was being a jerk. We agree on this.

He is scared later on in the episode, we agree on this as well, and it makes perfect sense. I don't fault Homer for that, I fault bad writing for all of the ridiculous twists his running away took.

The problem is, he's the reason for Grampa being in the hospital in the first place, because of his earlier jerkass behaviour. Had the exploding kidney not been a direct result of Homer's inconsiderate and self-centred actions, I probably wouldn't have had so much of a problem. But here? He just keeps running and running but he's the cause. The fear is understandable but the way it starts off really does not help anyone's opinion of Homer, and for some people, it's enough to carry through the whole episode.

Then of course at the end he runs away a second time for the purposes of another joke, which, after everything, still makes him look like a jerk. The episode is bookended by instances of Homer's jerkiness - it isn't too much of a stretch to find him to be a jerk somewhere in the middle as well.

[Mt. Doom]

Though Homer is rude and annoying in this it isn't the worst we've seen of jerkass Homer. Overall it isn't one of the worst episodes, its just bad

2/5

[Ben Chan]

No, what I wrote is valid. Assuming homer was only scared, he wouldn't have became a pissy jerk after the operation and the way he was happy for barts kidney...

Heh. That's a fair point actually. I can defend my view by saying that he was angry about trust issues, rather than the operation itself. I therefore suggest his behaviour was still fully reasonable, and I assume a healthy amount of leniency in his anger for last scene laughter.

He is scared later on in the episode, we agree on this as well, and it makes perfect sense. I don't fault Homer for that, I fault bad writing for all of the ridiculous twists his running away took.

Agreed. I never defended the twists of the episode, merely the behaviour of Homer because
a) it's not that unreasonable
b) it's actually pretty funny (and after all, The Simpsons is 80% comedy, 1% cherry on top and 19% filler)

Had the exploding kidney not been a direct result of Homer's inconsiderate and self-centred actions, I probably wouldn't have had so much of a problem. But here? He just keeps running and running but he's the cause.

So? He's still afraid. If I caused an accident and was going to suffer years in jail and could make a break for it, I would as it represents a larger amount of liberty and freedom as opposed to jail. For Homer, he has two choices regardless of whether he caused it or not: run, or undergo an operation which he clearly has a massive fear of. If I were Homer, and I had that fear, I'd run. That's the basis for Homer's behaviour and I think it's reasonable.

Then of course at the end he runs away a second time for the purposes of another joke, which, after everything, still makes him look like a jerk. The episode is bookended by instances of Homer's jerkiness - it isn't too much of a stretch to find him to be a jerk somewhere in the middle as well.

Bookends aren't really very significant compared to books though, are they?

[arii]

So? He's still afraid. If I caused an accident and was going to suffer years in jail and could make a break for it, I would as it represents a larger amount of liberty and freedom as opposed to jail.

And you wouldn't be a jerk for it? I don't see how it works. The fear can be reasonable, but that doesn't make the action and the resulting actions any less dickish.

Bookends aren't really very significant compared to books though, are they?

Okay, then, let me rephrase. There's what's at the beginning and what's at the end. They both project the same sort of tone, indicating little to no growth has taken place throughout the middle; or, whatever growth might have taken place is completely lost, so it's as if it never exicted in the first place. The middle reflects the tones of the beginning and end. It's unable to stand on its own.

[Ankle]

And you wouldn't be a jerk for it? I don't see how it works. The fear can be reasonable, but that doesn't make the action and the resulting actions any less dickish.

Uh... Yeah, I can understand finding the writing of this episode lame, but you're kind of pushing it here, iceiwynd. It's okay to admit you're wrong, but what Homer apparently had was a phobia of dying. It's not about being a jerk. If Ben Chan ran away from the operating table because he was scared, no I wouldn't call him a jerk. I'd be sad for the person needing a kidney, but calling him a jerk would be the last name on my list.

And you know what - So what if Homer was a jerk? I've explained this before in my other thread. The show changed. Everyone else in the show acknowledges he's a jerk (See Angry Dad). Yes, it sucked because he was no longer the Homer we once knew, but you have to take it like it is. What's the point?

[arii]

The example given was a poor one because if you tried to evade the law so you wouldn't be punished for a crime committed, yeah, that would make you a jerk. That's more what I was referring to there. It doesn't work quite the same as Homer's situation.

But his indifference to Grampa's suffering in the beginning? I don't care if it was a joke. It makes him a jerk. He feels some remorse for it afterwards, and that's good, but it still leaves a bad taste for some people - myself included - to see him running around through various wacky means to escape. And then there's that issue of the ending. Again. I look at the episode and see no growth. I see a guy who's scared, but also a guy who is incredibly selfish and frankly, an ass. S10 Homer just doesn't inspire me with a lot of sympathy.

And uh... If you're going to do an episode about this sort of subject, something so close to death, with two of your major characters, it would be wise to make them both more sympathetic. That's just my opinion though. And taking timing into account here - that this episode is right where The Simpsons started to show a rather steep decline - considering everything before it, it's a little more jarring.

[Ben Chan]

And you wouldn't be a jerk for it? I don't see how it works. The fear can be reasonable, but that doesn't make the action and the resulting actions any less dickish.

Basically I agree with Ankle. It makes me a lot of things, but not a jerk, if my fear is overwhelming and rational - and for Homer it certainly was.

Okay, then, let me rephrase. There's what's at the beginning and what's at the end. They both project the same sort of tone, indicating little to no growth has taken place throughout the middle; or, whatever growth might have taken place is completely lost, so it's as if it never exicted in the first place. The middle reflects the tones of the beginning and end. It's unable to stand on its own.

And I disagree, because combined those two scenes have minimal impact on the story, and go for about 60 seconds all up. They're incredibly minor parts of the episode that, really, don't have an enormous impact on the rest of the episode. Despite what you say, I do sympathise with Homer's behaviour in the middle of the episode, both with and without the beggining and end of the episode. All of this is now redundant. My original point was people are being too harsh on the episode, and I think you agree, and I'm hoping everyone else is starting to see that this isn't, "worst episode ever", or "Homer's biggest jerkass moment", or whatever was the common opinion months and years ago.

I see a guy who's scared, but also a guy who is incredibly selfish and frankly, an ass

Yeah they're not related imo, and if you believe that you'd have to distill the three 'parts' of the episode that are causing our problem, and you'd come to our conclusion. You think his being selfish is in some way related to him being scared and vice versa? Personally I see them as being quite independant.