The General Discussion Lounge

[Captain Edwell]

From BTTF writer Dan Greaney's Wikipedia entry:

His earlier episodes (King-Size Homer, Summer of 4 Ft. 2) are considered by many to be some of the shows best episodes while his later ones (Bonfire of the Manatees) have received less enthusiastic reviews. He -- this is him writing now, in response to the foregoing -- says that he thinks "I D'oh-Bot" is pretty good, and that "Bart to the Future" is actually kind of a classic but is resisted by some fans for its negative-but-honest portrait of Bart's likely future. He thinks that saying he hit a late-career slump may be overstating things a bit.

[Adam R]

I feel similar to most about BTTF, the characters are all their normal selves but older, it's poorly written. And those of you worrying about Bart's future, he goes on to be Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, remember?

Its a very, very morbid idea but I always wondered ever since I was a kid if they'd ever do a flash-forward episode or sequence so far into the future that it'd be during a time where either Homer or Marge you know...passes on. Maybe as like...one of the last episodes or the last episode. Man...flashing forward in time to Homer leaving us as the final scene of the series, that would possibly dethrone even Seymour dying. lol. How utterly depressing an idea.

*Insert "he died at the end of season 8" type comment here*

Seriously though it'd be kind of fun to see a flash forward where a major character would die, not as the last episode though. Speaking of what could happen in the last episode, I remember this idea on Maggied a while back that at the start of the last season Marge got pregnant and then had her baby in the last episode. The episode closed with the family looking into the crib of the new baby who looks exactly like a baby Homer and he tries to put his thumb in his mouth to suck it, but misses and hits himself in the eye and says "D'oh!" I don't really want some big changes like this to happen, but it'd be a neat idea and quite a nice ending to the series.

[Kiyosuki]

I feel similar to most about BTTF, the characters are all their normal selves but older, it's poorly written. And those of you worrying about Bart's future, he goes on to be Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, remember?



*Insert "he died at the end of season 8" type comment here*

Seriously though it'd be kind of fun to see a flash forward where a major character would die, not as the last episode though. Speaking of what could happen in the last episode, I remember this idea on Maggied a while back that at the start of the last season Marge got pregnant and then had her baby in the last episode. The episode closed with the family looking into the crib of the new baby who looks exactly like a baby Homer and he tries to put his thumb in his mouth to suck it, but misses and hits himself in the eye and says "D'oh!" I don't really want some big changes like this to happen, but it'd be a neat idea and quite a nice ending to the series.

Yeah maybe some...really small and subtle something to set it apart even a little bit as the last episode. It'd be kind of cheap if it was over the top and big, but I think it'd be kind of neat to have a scenerio like that where some small, subtle something happens to mark the whole thing as over in a kind of under the table way. Seeing how long the series has lasted, I can't help but feel like it'd be kind of sad if the last episode just completely felt like any other one.

And on the flash forward thing...I just think of things like that sometimes. lol But you do have to admit, although for a last episode it'd be a bit...much, going forward to when a character dies is kind of sparking of morbid curiousity. Maybe Grampa has a little flash in the present somehow to when he dies in the near future (like even just a few years). The little "lesson" in the end would be that he should live every moment he has left in the present rather than lament so much about the past. That could be a really sad but sweet idea for a future ep.

Although unfortunatly the episode with the Bull Fighter last season has a kind of similar "moral".

[DotheBartman]

It's odd that Greaney would feel that way (assuming that's true). Not that he would defend his work, per se, but that he honestly thinks that's the main issue with BTTF.

Bart will in all likelihood grow up to be a loser. No doubt about that, and anyone using that silly Supreme Court Justice thing as justification for otherwise in particular would have to be kidding themselves. Even in Lisa's Wedding he's basically a loser, just one that seems to be working on his own. No, it's the REST of that episode that totally sucks ass. For one thing it really doesn't utilize the future at all, joke-wise. Most of it's just lazy and it's hard to see how some of it is really even jokes or plays on the potential future. And it recycles quite a bit from "Lisa's Wedding" with whatever jokes are actually there. On the top of that, the basic premise is pretty bad. Bart's future is fairly believable, but Lisa's isn't. I mean it's possible, but it just seems like a lazy idea based on what her ultimate aspirations might be; in reality, her being the president is a huge stretch. But what's worse is that absolutely nothing is done with it. The whole angle of Bart potentially embarrassing her goes absolutely nowhere and just feels like a banal sitcom plot. And the subplot is even worse; I mean there's absolutely no way that I could say that it ISN'T a banal sitcom plot. There's just basically no strong story in the whole episode, and there's maybe five decent gags total. Definitely one of the worst episodes to date.

Lisa's Wedding was such a classic too. I actually feel there hasn't been a better episode since, future-related or otherwise. It's my second favorite episode.

[Stevie V. Scrivello]

Yeah, I want it to end with a normal (but great) episode too. There's some losers over at KLS that have this obsession with wanting them to die in the last episode.

Ah yeah that.I've seen it in some other places too. I wonder why.

Morbid=Funny?

Is this why I laugh hysterically at Tales From the Crypt episodes?

Honestly though, if the series were to end, I'd like them to leave us wanting more (although we're probably pretty full by now). Maybe they could do what they did on the finale of Everybody Loves Raymond, where the entire cast came into the kitchen at the end for no real reason. Oh no wait...all those characters? That wouldn't work.

[luben]

Talking about the 'reality' of the visions of the future, I think that if you look at the series so far as a whole, they should be considered just like jokes made by the writers with the characters, similarly to what others have said. But if you start to consider the reality of the 'future lives' of OFF, yes, they should be considered seriously. I mean, even if there are some contradictions between the 3 future episodes, they still fit together when it comes to the future lives of OFF. For example even if you take BTTF really happens, didn't Lisa said that she had just appointed a Supreme Court justice in it?
And I got the impression that if they will do another episode about the future, hardly they will write off completely the others. And even if they will do an episode that takes place in the future, fixing it forever, I dubt that the writer would ever contradict directly what the other visions have shown. So, to make clearer this messed up thought, as long as you consider the visions about the future just like snapshots of moments in the future lives of characters who don't age, then they are actually likely to happen.

[Charlie]

Yesterday I was watching Co-Dependent's Day when my grandmother walked in. She commented on how she's "never gotten over the weird shape of the character's mouths", which got me thinking, because I've actually never thought about how weird the characters look (except for their skin colour of course).

[Mr Black]

Intersting. It is difficult to draw mouths that fit in with the rest of the body I suppose.

[Charlie]

I just read the SNPP DVD cuts guide for Season 8, and I noticed they say that in Homer's Enemy, a few networks showed only the sound of Grimes being electrocuted, which is put over a shot of shocked coworkers looking on. They then go on to say the DVD version actually shows him being electrocuted, like in the original airing. As far as I can remember, the Australian version of the S8 DVD cuts from him about to hold the power cables to the shot of his coworkers, with no shot of the actual electrocution. As a person who never saw this episode before the DVD, I feel cheated.

[Kiyosuki]

Morbid=Funny?

Is this why I laugh hysterically at Tales From the Crypt episodes?

Honestly though, if the series were to end, I'd like them to leave us wanting more (although we're probably pretty full by now). Maybe they could do what they did on the finale of Everybody Loves Raymond, where the entire cast came into the kitchen at the end for no real reason. Oh no wait...all those characters? That wouldn't work.

Well I don't know if the Simpsons dying, especially with how long we've known them could possibly be funny. And as a kid I used to laugh my ass off at Interview with the Vampire because of the morbidness. Yes I was a bizzare kid.

Yesterday I was watching Co-Dependent's Day when my grandmother walked in. She commented on how she's "never gotten over the weird shape of the character's mouths", which got me thinking, because I've actually never thought about how weird the characters look (except for their skin colour of course).

From an animator's perspective, the overbites are probably the hardest thing to get used to...for some more than others if you've never drawn a Greoning esque character before. The biggest thing I think thats challenging and generally seen as unusual about them is that the artstyle of the Simpsons and Futurama is heavilly dependant on implied details and sillouettes. The overbites are kind of a really pronounced exaggeration of both the lips AND the overall chin. The two are treated often separately with other styles, so having that totally different mindset in structure's quite a shock.

It depends on what you're most used to drawing, like someone who loves to draw more typically seen simplistic Japanese animation styles would have an extremely difficult time adjusting to the style because they're so used to drawing the face in one overall shape all the time and treating the mouth as a separate facial quality.

Although there are some other styles within Japanese animation where there's more exaggerated expressions and sometimes mouths have minor overbites, so for someone like that it'd be a bit easier to get used to.

But in general it is I think psychologically very weird at first glance whether you're just watching it or actually drawing it because normally I think we tend to look at the mouth as a smaller "part" of the face and head, where as with Greoning-esque style characters the mouth dictates the structure of the entire head much more essentially. Its almost...muppet like.

[Dark Homer]

I just read the SNPP DVD cuts guide for Season 8, and I noticed they say that in Homer's Enemy, a few networks showed only the sound of Grimes being electrocuted, which is put over a shot of shocked coworkers looking on. They then go on to say the DVD version actually shows him being electrocuted, like in the original airing. As far as I can remember, the Australian version of the S8 DVD cuts from him about to hold the power cables to the shot of his coworkers, with no shot of the actual electrocution. As a person who never saw this episode before the DVD, I feel cheated.

Does he get electrocuted in the DVD main menu (after he goes to check the telephone pole Beaver Homer has bitten)?

[Nebuchanezzar]

Which is good, yeah?

Maybe they could do what they did on the finale of Everybody Loves Raymond, where the entire cast came into the kitchen at the end for no real reason

I'd sooner kill myself than see that type of ending plague my most beloved of all TV shows. It'd be cool to have a sweet, sombre ending as the conclusion to the last episode, much like we saw in something like Mother Simpson or Lisa the Vegetarian. I think that for anyone that had some kind of he-man protection during those episodes that prevented them from getting at least a little teary (Mother Simpson moreso), the fact that it's the last Simpsons episode ever would totally crack them up. I know I'll be a blubbering mess when it's all said and done, no matter what they do. They could end the series with a fart joke and I'd probably still end up crying.

That being said, I still hate talking about the end of this series. It makes me look like one of those people who are constantly demanding for an end to the series, and that's an event I never want to finally come along. It will inevitably, but I don't want it. End it in season 30!

Edit: We get the coworkers looking on, and I think it's a much better option to have. Electrocution gags are always pretty damn lame, moreso when you actually see a Simpsons character get electrocuted. I suppose it's just a pet peeve of mine or something like that, but seeing the grimaces is a lot better than seeing his skeleton flashing in and out. The comedy of subtlety.

[Dark Homer]

From an animator's perspective, the overbites are probably the hardest thing to get used to...for some more than others if you've never drawn a Greoning esque character before. The biggest thing I think thats challenging and generally seen as unusual about them is that the artstyle of the Simpsons and Futurama is heavilly dependant on implied details and sillouettes. The overbites are kind of a really pronounced exaggeration of both the lips AND the overall chin. The two are treated often separately with other styles, so having that totally different mindset in structure's quite a shock.

As a compulsive doodler who grew up with the simpsons, I actually find it a little difficult to *not* draw overbites

[Kiyosuki]

It's odd that Greaney would feel that way (assuming that's true). Not that he would defend his work, per se, but that he honestly thinks that's the main issue with BTTF.

Bart will in all likelihood grow up to be a loser. No doubt about that, and anyone using that silly Supreme Court Justice thing as justification for otherwise in particular would have to be kidding themselves. Even in Lisa's Wedding he's basically a loser, just one that seems to be working on his own..

Yeah it is sad but true. But I don't know...I kind of like it that way. It makes sense, but there's a small little potential ray of hope that maybe he'll escape that loser fate of his. Like maybe one day he'll finally learn, but its kind of up to you. When combined with the fact that a lot of the future is for grabs, and can be kind of taken any way you want it makes that a little better. Its all together ambiguous and kind of mysterious, pretty much like the future in general.

I mean, Herb escaped the curse of the Simpsons boys...

As a compulsive doodler who grew up with the simpsons, I actually find it a little difficult to *not* draw overbites

Well like I said it also greatly depends on what you're most used to drawing. Its just that the overbite is very, very different than most other character design styles and the mentalities behind them. I know many animators who work on the Simpsons find it difficult to draw in another style other than that one after a while because its so different. Eventually...everything else becomes totally different.

[Veryjammy]

I might be wrong here but I don't believe I've ever actually seen Grimey get electrocuted in the episode. I thought we saw him about to grab the wires and then it cuts to the co-workers with the sound of him being electrocuted.

Edit - well I just watched it on the DVD and I'm wrong. For less than half a second you see him electrocuted. It doesn't really add or take away anything from the scene either way and is a long way removed from the likes of This Little Wiggy's crappy electrocution scene.

[brody]

Watching Homer: Badman last night, I realized there was something that irritated me greatly. When Homer is filming the Rock Bottom interview, the hands on the clock barely moves at all, but when the interview airs on TV, the hands are moving all over the place, suggesting the interview took about 30 minutes, when actually, it really only took about 5. Pretty stupid problem, right?

[Stevie V. Scrivello]

Watching Homer: Badman last night, I realized there was something that irritated me greatly. When Homer is filming the Rock Bottom interview, the hands on the clock barely moves at all, but when the interview airs on TV, the hands are moving all over the place, suggesting the interview took about 30 minutes, when actually, it really only took about 5. Pretty stupid problem, right?

Eh, there's three soloutions to the problem there:

1. The clock was malfunctioning that day

2. The world of The Simpsons has a distorted space-time continum

3. Just try not to think about it too much

Don't know about you, but I went with #3

[richardUK]

The Otto Show
Season 3
Detail:

Bart is left handed.
He is bought a left handed guitar.
He is seen in a daydream playing it left handed on a stage at a concert. Milhouse walks by afterwards, also with a left handed guitar.
He plays it left handed, seen in the scene in the living room (when he gets frustrated with Lisa).
Outside the bus, he is still playing it left handed (trying to play Polly-wolly-doodle).
He gets on the bus and Otto turns it upside down and plays the left handed guitar right handed.
Somehow, Otto stands up, playing the guitar. Even though straps wouldn't go round his shoulder upside down, (the guitar would fall and smash on the ground, thankyou gravity).
When Otto is playing the guitar in the Simpsons' basement, it has turned into a right handed guitar, shaped the other way. He is playing it normally.



Wondering if anyone else had noticed the guitar changing completely, heh.
Maybe I'm a loser. I don't care. If it makes me happy, well then

[Postmaster]

I think this falls into the category of the type of obsession that complains about itchy producing two different sounds despite striking the same bone twice.
So not something I consider noteworthy.

[Charlie]

Does he get electrocuted in the DVD main menu (after he goes to check the telephone pole Beaver Homer has bitten)?

Yeh, I just went and re-watched that scene...the electrocution bit is in there, but it's such a brief shot that I forgot about it.

[W.P.]

Watching Homer: Badman last night, I realized there was something that irritated me greatly. When Homer is filming the Rock Bottom interview, the hands on the clock barely moves at all, but when the interview airs on TV, the hands are moving all over the place, suggesting the interview took about 30 minutes, when actually, it really only took about 5. Pretty stupid problem, right?

If the episode had a bear as a talk show host, an explosive can wrapper, and a breaking of the fourth wall, I have no clue why you are pointing that out. I mean, looking at a silly satire like that makes it no fun.

[grissom]

I never even though about that clock joke. It really doesn't make sense, but as W.P. said, it's a pretty crazy episode to begin with. It doesn't really bother me.

[TheForbiddenDonut]

It actually does sort of bug me. Even though everything else is pretty ridiculous, it still isn't that unusual given the exaggerated screwed up reality that is the Simpsons, that there would be a grenade like combination of soda and pop rocks or that there was a talk show host bear. But when clock hands go crazy the second time and not the first (I understand the point of the joke, but still), it just boggles my mind.

[Nebuchanezzar]

It's just making its satire all the more exxagerated for comedic purposes, jeez Louise. Thankg God Mirkin didn't have anal retentive problems with exaggeration like some people, otherwise we'd be left with nothing but dull, humourless and totally uninspiring piece-of-crap satire.

[DotheBartman]

The clock thing is pretty ridiculous but it's neccesary for the joke. Who cares.

[richardUK]

I think this falls into the category of the type of obsession that complains about itchy producing two different sounds despite striking the same bone twice.
So not something I consider noteworthy.

Fair enough. I wasn't pointing it out as a mistake, I just thought it was kinda funny. Espec. as when hes playing it upside down, theres a grey blotch over where the strap would be. I thought it was kinda clever, someone maybe thought "Hey, it can all be solved by a grey splodge..."

[Imperciph]

My local affiliate has been showing s14and 15 nowadays and comparing them with s18, I am finding the episodes of s14 and 15 having a lot more ambition :both dramatic and satirical, feature relatively livelier characterisations and better plotting and focus. The only thing that's unchanged is the unevenness of the humour. Fact is that best Jean era humour is of drier, quieter, more character-based type while louder, more surreal, in-your-face humour always consists of uneven material and s14-15 consisted more of the character-based type while s17-18 have a greater emphasis on louder,surreal gags.

And this rewatch has convinced me that in terms of overall approach to storytelling, ambition, satirical aspects, character-driven humour treatment of both secondary and primary characters, EABFs are easily the most ambitious production run of the Jean era. It was in this production line that Jean was at his most consistent and showed the most promise,with almost every plot he attempted coming off as being fresh. After s8, it was in the EABF that the most effort was made in developing and fleshing out secondary characters : the best instance of Flanders dealing with Maude's death came with his endearing and charming performance in A Star Is Born Again, Special Edna was a very sweet character-driven story that successfully follwed up Grade School Confidential, and what Moe Baby Blues did for Moe is nothing short of pure brilliance. There were great attempts at fully formed satires and sharp social commentary (The Bart Of War, Mr. Spritz Goes To Washington are easily Jean's best efforts at satire). Nice down-to-earth character driven stories involving OFF were done as well. Three Gays Of Condo is easily the most empathetic Homer/Marge marital crisis episode, featuring endearing sympathetic characterisations of both Homer and Marge (if all marital crisis episodes were written like this few would've had problems). My Mother The Carjacker does a near impossible task and serves as a quite well-done sequel to Mother Simpson, expanding the bond between Homer and his mom. The Dad Who Knew Too Little spoofs private-eye movies while telling a light-hearted story between Homer and Lisa. While there certainly were bad spots (Pray Anything, Dude Where's My Ranch and The Regina Monologues are outright stinkers), this is a production run which has the most ambitious stories and consistently produces good episodes on a regular basis.

EABF01 The Great Louse Detective C
EABF02 Special Edna B+
EABF03 The Dad Who Knew Too Little B
EABF04 Strong Arms of the Ma C+
EABF05 Barting Over C+
EABF06 Pray Anything D-
EABF07 I'm Spelling as Fast as I Can B-
EABF08 A Star is Born-Again B
EABF09 Mr. Spritz Goes to Washington B
EABF10 C. E. D'oh. B+
EABF11 'Scuse Me While I Miss the Sky B
EABF12 Three Gays of the Condo B+
EABF13 Dude, Where's My Ranch? D+
EABF14 Old Yeller-Belly C+
EABF15 Brake My Wife, Please C+
EABF16 The Bart of War B-
EABF17 Moe Baby Blues A
EABF18 My Mother the Carjacker A-
EABF19 The Fat and the Furriest C-
EABF20 The President Wore Pearls B+
EABF21 Treehouse of Horror XIV C+
EABF22 The Regina Monologues C-

[brody]

EABF01 The Great Louse Detective C-
EABF02 Special Edna B+
EABF03 The Dad Who Knew Too Little B
EABF04 Strong Arms of the Ma C
EABF05 Barting Over C+
EABF06 Pray Anything D
EABF07 I'm Spelling as Fast as I Can B-
EABF08 A Star is Born-Again B+
EABF09 Mr. Spritz Goes to Washington B+
EABF10 C. E. D'oh. A-
EABF11 'Scuse Me While I Miss the Sky B
EABF12 Three Gays of the Condo B+
EABF13 Dude, Where's My Ranch? D
EABF14 Old Yeller-Belly C-
EABF15 Brake My Wife, Please D+
EABF16 The Bart of War B
EABF17 Moe Baby Blues A
EABF18 My Mother the Carjacker A-
EABF19 The Fat and the Furriest C-
EABF20 The President Wore Pearls B+
EABF21 Treehouse of Horror XIV C+
EABF22 The Regina Monologues D-

While it is not at all flawless, it definitely had ambition. Not to mention the characters seemed to be written in a more attractive light than they are today.

[coltonwiggum]

Last night I was flicking through the channels when on TBS I stumbled upon Godzilla (the 1998 one). It really sucked, and after a few second I was ready to change the channel. But suddenly I saw Nancy Cartright, then Harry Shearer, then Hank Azaria. I thought that was pretty cool that all three of them were in the movie together. Any thoughts?

[TheForbiddenDonut]

It's just making its satire all the more exxagerated for comedic purposes, jeez Louise. Thankg God Mirkin didn't have anal retentive problems with exaggeration like some people, otherwise we'd be left with nothing but dull, humourless and totally uninspiring piece-of-crap satire.

My post in and of itself was pretty exaggerational. I still adore the joke, but I was just sort of comically emphasizing the fact that a minor continuity error bugs me more than Mirkin's outrageous and unrealistic sense of humor.