Rate and Review: Lisa on Ice

[Nebuchanezzar]

I watched it this afternoon over lunch on Fox8. Hilarious episode and a nice little story expanded into a pretty extravagant and relevant form (the sibling rivalry being turned into an all-in-brawl for the whole town). Fits all my criteria for being a good episode. But uh, that's the thing. It's well known now that I don't have problems with the style of this episode. A lot of other people do. I'm genuinely interested to hear how the chumps that are always moaning and groaning about certain...traits of a certain character as written by a certain writer can ignore those traits which are abundantly obvious in this episode. A quick comparison so you can see where I'm going here...

Homer: I'll mace you good! *swings mace*
---
Homer: I want to see you both fighting - fighting, for your parents love! Fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight!

Well?

[TheForbiddenDonut]

I always got the impression that the same people who moaned and groaned about jerkass Homer had a problem with this episode (I do to a small extent), but this thread really doesn't seem to reflect that for some reason.

[Kyoya Otori]

Ignore.

[altoids30]

Top 5 material for me... I especially love the moment where Homer makes Bart flinch in the car. As well as "FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!"

Homer is a real jerk in it, but since the episode is a satire of obnoxious sports dads, it's acceptable.

[Moe Nopoly]

It's a great episode about Lisa and Bart.
Homer is also really funny with some hilarious scenes

4/5

[violent jase]

Amazing episode. Definitely my favourite from season 6. 5/5

[Dental Plan!]

Heyy...remember that 'sign of what was to come in the Scully era' thread, Neb.

lol.

Anyway, good episode. Very good, infact. 4.5/5.

[Nebuchanezzar]

but since the episode is a satire of obnoxious sports dads, it's acceptable.

Ooh, ooh, but surely there are ways to go about that type of stuff without making Homer look like a total jerk! Waah, wahh!

Now that's sarcasm. Seriously though, that excuse can be applied to quite a few episodes that people have problems with also (Trash of the Titans in particular). The episode was a satire of an angry citizen going against the beuracracy, yeah? And it's not as if the satire in this episode was particularly powerful either, was it now? Can I therefore say that the mace scene in Children of a Lesser Clod was acceptable because it was a satire of angry fathers, and an exploration of a father having to deal with two kids that don't appreciate what he was doing? Yes, I can. I do on a regular basis. It's one of the defenses I use for Lisa the Skeptic. On the other hand, certain Donuts and other members too seem to hold that episode in low regard. But this one? They regard this one in high regard!? WHAT'S THE DEAL THERE EH?

I think the key here is that all NHC members are inconsistent fools. With the exception of me. Of course.

[Imperciph]

don't you seem to be overlooking the simple fact that Bart and Lisa are the main characters of this particular episode who are perfectly well written while Homer is just a secondary character which is why his jerkassery doesn't affect this episode in such significant manner like it does in Trash Of The Titans ?

[TheForbiddenDonut]

Yeah, that and Homer is actually funny in 'Lisa On Ice' when his jerkassery isn't dominating. 'Trash of the Titans', not so much.

[Nebuchanezzar]

don't you seem to be overlooking the simple fact that Bart and Lisa are the main characters of this particular episode who are perfectly well written while Homer is just a secondary character which is why his jerkassery doesn't affect this episode in such significant manner like it does in Trash Of The Titans ?

I don't think that's really relevant. If the characters are there...well, they're there. Yeah?

[altoids30]

Yeah, that and Homer is actually funny in 'Lisa On Ice' when his jerkassery isn't dominating. 'Trash of the Titans', not so much.

Homer's funniest in "Lisa On Ice" when his jerkassery _is_ dominating... eg. the moment in the car with Bart flinching, and encouraging the kids to fight for their parents' love.

Let's admit that jerkass Homer can be funny sometimes.

[TheForbiddenDonut]

The funniest Homer moment in the entire episode for me has nothing to do with the satire on vicarious parenting, which is the whole pie scene. The rest of his moments in the episode are smile-worthy at best.

[Nebuchanezzar]

Let's admit that jerkass Homer can be funny sometimes.

I was aiming to get people to admit that much.

The rest of his moments in the episode are smile-worthy at best.

This is in direct contrast to your previous thoughts on the episode.

Homer doesn't bug me like he does in other classic era episodes (Homer's Phobia, Homer Loves Flanders), and, aside from the occasional awkward moment, he is actually quite hilarious.

Granted, these were made over a year ago, but it's probably for the best if you'd clarify your position for us.

[Imperciph]

I don't think that's really relevant. If the characters are there...well, they're there. Yeah?

that's the worst argument you've ever made.

[TheForbiddenDonut]

This is in direct contrast to your previous thoughts on the episode.

Granted, these were made over a year ago, but it's probably for the best if you'd clarify your position for us.

It's because it was over a year ago. I guess his antics in this episode just didn't hold up on repeated viewings. Still good for a smile, though, and that's hardly a bad thing by my standards.

[Tamaki Suoh]

A mediocre episode, not too much fun to watch. A good idea for a plot but not carried out as good as it could have been. 3/5

[Nebuchanezzar]

that's the worst argument you've ever made.

It's perfectly logical. You can't sit there and say "Oh but these guys aren't in the spotlight so I can safely ignore them." If they're in the episode then they're in the episode.

Nope. A poor argument would be saying that Homer's jerkassery isn't a problem in an episode that's supposed to be a satire on bad parenting.

[Imperciph]

No, you seem to be intentionally or unintentionally missing my point. Who is supposed to have the bigger effect on the quality : the characters who are the crux of the main storyline who are well-written, or a secondary character who suffers from questionable characterisation ? It's not an episode whose main focus is on bad parenting, it's an episode whose main focus is the sibling rivalry. Therefore, Homer's jerkass antics can at best reduce the episode from A+ material to A-/B+ material. On the other hand if Bart and Lisa were poorly written that would've caused a much more significant effect on the quality as they are the main focus. To equate this to something like Trash Of The Titans where Homer, the main character, is poorly/repetitively written, is illogical and fallacious.

Nope. A poor argument would be saying that Homer's jerkassery isn't a problem in an episode that's supposed to be a satire on bad parenting.

ironic coming from the guy who constantly uses the point of "flexible characterisation is ok for the purposes of satire" ? in his debates

[SilverEagle]

that's the worst argument you've ever made.

It's not a terrible argument; just a terribly worded argument.

[Nebuchanezzar]

Who is supposed to have the bigger effect on the quality : the characters who are the crux of the main storyline who are well-written, or a secondary character who suffers from questionable characterisation?

You're making it seem as if Homer is a mere bystander to the plot. He is not. Please don't attempt to make it out as if he is.

It's not an episode whose main focus is on bad parenting, it's an episode whose main focus is the sibling rivalry.

No it isn't. It is an episode with a shared main focus. There is certainly a focus on the sibling rivalry but there's just as much time spent looking at their rivalry as there is spent looking at how Homer pits them against each other, how he treats them initially and how he treats them in light of their success. A "main focus" on sibling rivalry? Hardly. At best it'd be a ratio of 51/49 and even then you'd be hard pressed to find many people who would realistically call that a main focus. Have you even watched the episode?

To equate this to something like Trash Of The Titans where Homer, the main character, is poorly/repetitively written, is illogical and fallacious.

Fallacious my foot. Regardless of where the focus is, the issues are still there.

EDIT: What's also interesting is that you didn't touch my Children of a Lesser Clod example.

ironic coming from the guy who constantly uses the point of "flexible characterisation is ok for the purposes of satire" ? in his debates

I subscribe to that theory. You, as far as I know, do not. Therefore, there is very little irony related to my standing on this episode. On the other hand, in relation to your beliefs, there's quite a bit of irony and hypocrisy to be found. Speaking of which, if I ever catch you out complaining about something that's not strictly part of the story and see you downgrading the episode in question then I will have to bring that up. 8-)

[Imperciph]

It's nowhere near 51/49. It's at best 70/30. Episode scores 65/70 on one and 15/30 on another, ensuring 80% which is good. Pfft.

I subscribe to that theory. You, as far as I know, do not. Therefore, there is very little irony related to my standing on this episode. On the other hand, in relation to your beliefs, there's quite a bit of irony and hypocrisy to be found. Speaking of which, if I ever catch you out complaining about something that's not strictly part of the story and see you downgrading the episode in question then I will have to bring that up. 8-)

Unlike you or TFD, I'm on a middle ground, subscribing to the theory that all character behaviour which is grounded in reality is justified. which is why I consider Homer in Dead Putting Society to be a far more astute satire of overzealous parenting than Lisa On Ice.

[Kid Moe]

1/5

[Nebuchanezzar]

^THERE WE GO! Some consistency! :silly:

It's nowhere near 51/49. It's at best 70/30. Episode scores 65/70 on one and 15/30 on another, ensuring 80% which is good. Pfft.

Pish posh.

Unlike you or TFD, I'm on a middle ground, subscribing to the theory that all character behaviour which is grounded in reality is justified. which is why I consider Homer in Dead Putting Society to be a far more astute satire of overzealous parenting than Lisa On Ice.

I find it a very limiting way to watch The Simpsons.

[Imperciph]

Homer's not the main catalyst for the escalation of the sibling rivalry, he's merely a part of it. He treats Bart and Lisa differently because one's more successful than the other, well, everyone else does it too. Whole of Springfield Elementary does it, the general public of Springfield (Moe, Apu etc.) does it, even Marge does it some extent. If satire of taking sports too seriously comprises 50% of the plot, Homer's not the complete part of it, he's at best 60% of this 50%, the rest are taken by the rest of Springfield. My position is mathematically proven consistent.

I find it a very limiting way to watch The Simpsons.

It's not merely limited to the simpsons, wise guy. I consider any piece of writing having a plot I'm supposed to care about to be much lower in quality if it's written in smug self-parodical and self-conscious manner. For example, take yourself. You've declined 70% comedically ever since you've gone into full-blown self parody mode with your "lulz" and such.

[TheForbiddenDonut]

Simply because my name was mentioned as being at the extreme of a spectrum where the middle ground includes enjoyment of 'Dead Putting Society', I'll go ahead and say that I love 'Dead Putting Society' because Homer is a very accurate portrayal of the average Joe jealous of his perfect neighbor. I still enjoy 'Lisa on Ice', but watching Homer reiterate the same exact favoritism over and over again instead makes me feel 'yeah we get it, you're an overzealous parent'. 'DPS' had more progression in that Homer gradually went from jealousy to anger and then into his state of vicarious parenting, which remains rooted in the initial jealous anger, whereas in 'LOI' just about every time he's on screen he's blabbering on about how much he favors Bart or Lisa and how much he loves winning over and over and over again until it gets old and it's all such a blatant plot convenience.

[Nebuchanezzar]

Homer's not the main catalyst for the escalation of the sibling rivalry, he's merely a part of it.

I think a more accurate analogy would be to say that Homer is not one of the main chemicals, but he is the main catalyst. And to think I failed chemistry!

He treats Bart and Lisa differently because one's more successful than the other, well, everyone else does it too. Whole of Springfield Elementary does it, the general public of Springfield (Moe, Apu etc.) does it, even Marge does it some extent. If satire of taking sports too seriously comprises 50% of the plot, Homer's not the complete part of it, he's at best 60% of this 50%, the rest are taken by the rest of Springfield. My position is mathematically proven consistent.

I disagree. Moe, Apu, Wiggum etc are at best background characters whose roles are mostly limited to setting up the story and delivering some one-liners (Let's tear this place apart!). Homer's role is far more complex.

It's not merely limited to the simpsons, wise guy. I consider any piece of writing having a plot I'm supposed to care about to be much lower in quality if it's written in smug self-parodical and self-conscious manner. For example, take yourself. You've declined 70% comedically ever since you've gone into full-blown self parody mode with your "lulz" and such.

Oh please. While I've introduced new elements to the Nebuchanezzar character, nothing has been reduced to accomodate these new elements. The only issue one could take up with this new writing team would be that the self-parody has become more in your face, and less hidden. For instance, while my old custom user title was a somewhat hidden jab at the fact that I can sometimes be a jerk, the new one is a less hidden version which has more concrete links with the internet (lulz), which I believe is important since that's where I'm posting.

Homer is a very accurate portrayal of the average Joe jealous of his perfect neighbor.

I don't know if I'd call it accurate. I'd call it hyperbolically angry with very little humour (YOUR PUTTERS NAME IS CHARLENE!).

[The Governor]

I always got the impression that the same people who moaned and groaned about jerkass Homer had a problem with this episode (I do to a small extent), but this thread really doesn't seem to reflect that for some reason.

Homer's "jerkass" behavior in this episode was a reflection of the overly competitive parent. Any kid who's had a parent who tried to live through them could relate.

[TheForbiddenDonut]

I'm aware of that. It's just that based on a lot of old threads I've skimmed through I've always read that many people never liked Homer in this episode.

I don't know if I'd call it accurate. I'd call it hyperbolically angry with very little humour (YOUR PUTTERS NAME IS CHARLENE!).

All I know is that Homer's way funnier in this episode than he is in 'Lisa On Ice'.

[Kiyosuki]

This was a pretty sophisticated kids vs. adults kind of story. Not in the traditional sense like Wild Barts Can't be Broken but more because you really felt for the kids in this because all the adults in this except for maybe Marge, and even she succumbs in the end...were all jerks. Well...it was the coach's jobs to be like that maybe but even so. Just pouring all their personal anxieties and desire for greatness on the kids. Sucks.

It was a pretty funny way of looking at a very dark scenerio.

As for Homer, he was an unbelievable ass in this but here's the thing...to me complaining about "Jerkass Homer" when he's just mean just doesn't work, because Homer's gotta be a jerk sometimes. What matters is if it works in the context of an episode. Here it works because in the context of the whole story Homer has to be a jerk. I hate to say it but the way he is here also makes sense for his character, because Homer's obviously the kind of guy with a lot of his own anxieties so its not a huge stretch to imagine he'd project that onto his kids like this. Nerdy semantics aside though it just worked for the episode. If it works it works.

Some may not like how no one but Lisa, Bart, and maybe Snake really "learned" anything by the end but it wasn't necessary to have anyone but those two learn about putting aside petty competitive squabble. They overcame their idiot dad's imposed expectations.

4/5