If homer was a jerk in Homer's Enemy he was even worse in Homer goes to college
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If homer was a jerk in Homer's Enemy he was even worse in Homer goes to college
Originally Posted by Company Picnic
both Homer Goes to College and Homer's Enemy are classics
Nearly drinking a beaker full of acid!? Take just about any episode that aired previous to "Enemy" and imagine "Homer" nearly drinking acid in the context of an older episode and Homer's uber-stupid behavior in "Enemy" looks even more out of place. Even when Homer goes floor-spinning in "Deep Space Homer", he still would've been too smart to drink the acid.
pretty easy mistake if you don't look at the bottle
Last edited by Capt Hammer; 07-24-2010 at 02:55 AM.
"Look, Marge, you don't know what it's like. I'm the one out there every day putting his ass on the line. And i'm not out of order! You're out of order. The whole freaking system is out of order. You want the truth? You want the truth?! You can't handle the truth! Because when you reach over and put your hand into a pile of goo, that was your best friend's face, you'll know what to do! Forget it, Marge. It's Chinatown!" - Homer's rant.
Instead, you take the "Homer drinks acid" moment. "Oh, he's so dumb, so stupid he's going to kill himself by accidentally taking the wrong bottle". No. From all the scenes you could choose to describe how excessively is his stupidity shown in this episode, you had to take the one that is hardly an epitome of his dumbness, but his usual absent-minded ways. This is not so different from that "Land of Chocolate" bit you watched five seasons ago.
Season 21 ratings (A.K.A. Qwert's Generic Sig Vol. II)
Homer The Whopper 7/10 Bart Gets A 'Z' 8.5/10 The Great Wife Hope 9/10 Treehouse Of Horror XX 9.17/10
The Devil Wears Nada 9.5/10 Pranks And Greens 6.5/10 Rednecks And Broomsticks 7.5/10 Oh Brother, Where Bart Thou? 8.5/10
Thursdays With Abie 5.5/10 Once Upon A Time In Springfield 10/10 Million Dollar Maybe 4.5/10 Boy Meets Curl 6/10
The Color Yellow 9/10 Postcards From The Wedge 9.5/10
Lisa On Ice would be another example. His ultra competitive attitude reminds of Scully era Homer a bit at times, especially the threats. Coincidentally it's also penned by Scully. However, here instead of drawing attention to Homer as his wild antics get increasingly out of hand, he's just incorporated in gags here and there. There's something about the character in episodes like this that makes me think it can be funny to have him as a total jerk in the right context.
For the record, I don't hate Homer's Enemy. As I stated in a previous post though, I'm not sure where it gets off being a top episode of the series. The humour is there, but I wouldn't call it sidesplittingly hilarious apart from the possibly the beginning. The concept of Homer being faced with a guy who actually responds to insane stupidity is acceptable, but if that's all there is to it I'm not wowed. It's not an episode where you're really seeking an emotional core to fall back upon.
I'm sure people will have other reasons for liking it as much as they do, but for me anyways, I just consider it a regular episode with an experimental angle at a time when the show was still great. I give about the same designation to Principal and the Pauper but find myself regularly defending it given how it is sometimes on the opposite end of the spectrum in terms of reputation. No doubt I would do the same if the situations were reversed.
Last edited by Nauru-1; 07-24-2010 at 05:18 PM.
To view various lists about my Simpsons opinions, click the link below.
I've listed off many reasons why I didn't like this episode many time in this thread. if you want to call almost all of Homer's antics "classic Homer" in this fine, that's your perogative, but don't expect me to agree because Homer "got worse" during the Scully / Jean era.
Oops.I believe it's called a Flask or an Erlenmeyer Flask. A beaker is more of a cylinder shape without the curve inwards at the brim.
If you're going to tell him his an idiot, do it properly.
However, that won't change the fact that, if Homer takes a bottle (or beaker, or Flask) to his mouth because he's not paying enough attention, the scene is hardly showing him as an overly stupid person, but somebody who is incredibly absent-minded. There is a difference, and it's quite noticeable. And this is true in the classic era with the "Land of Chocolate" example I mentioned, but would be too even in the dumbest of the Scully pearls.
The Dead Homer Society received an email from Bill Oakley in regards to Homer's Enemy:
You do realize that the Homer depicted in “Homer’s Enemy” is a satirical take on certain elements of Homer’s character and history that we (meaning, the writers at the time) always found excessive, right? At least that’s what it was intended to be, and I realize the distinction may well be so subtle as to be meaningless to many, if not most, fans.
But, that said:
Anything that may have happened after that episode and that season should not be extrapolated from the content of the Grimes story.
On the continuum between Homer the Misguided but Essentially Well-Meaning Oaf Next Door and Homer the Absurdly-Gluttonous World-Famous Idiot with No Recognizable Human Traits or Emotions, we usually tried to to stay to the left. Not always, but usually.
But for this episode, as a counterpoint to Grimes, we intentionally threw in a lot of stuff that was ridiculously over-the-top (or so we thought) like Homer snoring at the funeral, for Pete’s sakes, and hauled out of the closet all his most unrealistic (though hilarious) past adventures (he went into outer space! he won a Grammy! President Ford moved in and invited him over for nachos!).
If Frank Grimes had crossed paths with the fairly normal Homer (of “Lisa’s Pony” for instance) it simply would not have been as funny or as clear, satirically, as it was to have him cross paths with the ridiculously-boorish world-famous glutton that we depicted in “Homer’s Enemy”.
Basically, the Homer depicted in that episode was an intentional self-parody, a catalog of gleeful excesses past and present.
If it didn’t come off as such to even the most devoted fans, it was certainly our mistake.
Didn’t somebody say all this on the DVD commentary?
The DHC responded:
"First of all, thanks to Mr. Oakley for taking notice of us, and deeming us to have our heads far enough up our asses to deserve correction, but not so far as to make it unworthy of his time to offer that correction. Furthermore, we hope he understands how much we and so many others appreciate all the work he did on The Simpsons. It is a testament to the power of that work that we’re still talking about it all these years later.
To dispense with the smaller point first, Oakley is absolutely correct that Homer needed to be amped up a little from his usual self to provide a better contrast with the sober and staid Frank Grimes. As he writes, having a character like Grimes cross paths with the Homer of “Lisa’s Pony” wouldn’t have worked.
He is further correct that we can’t reasonably hold the rest of the series against “Homer’s Enemy”. Calling it a “turning point”, as the title of our post did, implies that this was somehow deliberate when, of course, the writers of “Homer’s Enemy” had no way to know that the show was going to go on for another three hundred episodes (so far), and that most of those episodes would feature Homer as an “Absurdly-Gluttonous World-Famous Idiot with No Recognizable Human Traits or Emotions”. In the context of the show at the time, having Homer recite his accomplishments and produce his Grammy worked as “an intentional self-parody, a catalog of gleeful excesses past and present”. It is only the subsequent descent of the series into unintentional self-parody that makes “Homer’s Enemy” seem like an early symptom of terrible things instead of the one-off it was intended to be.
We hope that Mr. Oakley can appreciate that from an audience point of view, privy only to the finished episodes and not the backstage goings on, “Homer’s Enemy” does seem to presage the decline of the show. It is true that this episode did not seal the show’s fate, as it is true that the Homer of “Homer’s Enemy” is much more akin to Homer we love than the one we despise. But for much of the wretched horde of remote wielding tube jockeys, letting Homer enjoy his life felt like opening a Pandora’s Box that had no hope at the bottom.
Sadly, those three hundred plus episodes after “Homer’s Enemy” must be acknowledged. They happened; and they have cheapened The Simpsons. Homer has become malicious, though not in “Homer’s Enemy”, nor even in much of Season 9. While the writers of “Homer’s Enemy” – which is an excellent episode – are not to blame for the ongoing tragedy of later seasons, neither can we ignore this first gaze into the abyss. The world is full of monstrous things that had grand and innocuous beginnings. Had this one not escaped its cage, had the show wound to a conclusion a year or two later instead of staggering on like the undead, we would remember this as the aberration it was intended to be."
Thumbs up because Bill Oakley reading and responding to that blog is pretty neat.
No. If you're privy to the 150 episodes prior to Homer's Enemy that aired and became canon for character history and the style of the show, then you know all you need to know when the show utilizes the simple concept of a straight man exposing certain traits of Homer's (or elements of the show generally, a quick example in Lenny's "oh that's our Homer!") that have always been rather ridiculous.Originally Posted by DHC
What the hell does this even mean? Jerkass Homer in the classic era is a fine (often funny) thing, and it is not the problem I have with today's show directly. It just bugs me that people demand likability first and foremost. "But for much of the wretched horde of remote wielding tube jockeys, letting Homer enjoy his life felt like opening a Pandora’s Box that had no hope at the bottom." Homer often enjoys his life. Groening has said in commentaries that Homer is crazy excitable and giddy, and it's often linked to his stupidity. Yeah, Homer has problems which make way for plots etc, but think of all the times he spends with Marge or eats and watches football.It is true that this episode did not seal the show’s fate, as it is true that the Homer of “Homer’s Enemy” is much more akin to Homer we love than the one we despise.
If you're going to be mad at Homer's Enemy, be mad at it for bottoming out the series in terms of where the self-satire has to go next. I maintain that an episode (or film, or anything) should be judged on its original airing (i.e., regardless of future episodes) because that's all the episode was made for-- that Sunday night at 8. Homer's Enemy did not change Homer's character-- it's kind of like that uncle who will never be spoken of again -- I'm sure it was well-recognized by the staff as the exercise in experimentation that it was, and if anything it made them more conscious of how much Homer and his weekly jobs had been bending and stretching from his original (Season 1-2) confines. BUT, any time that the series wants to make a joke about how absurd Homer's character is, they indeed do have Homer's Enemy to keep in mind. They'd probably been making fun of the characters since Season 3 even, and if you have Homer strangling Bart or whatever, of course it'll get stepped up over time; it's a case of "oh look, here's that thing that this character is known to do" needing commentary. Homer's Enemy was a natural progression of that prominent feature of the show, but I wouldn't disagree with you if you didn't like how far the episode went. I personally think it was a welcome episode once the show was 8 seasons in.
as far as I'm concerned, it's just an argument of semantics. to me, Jerkass Homer existed before (I don't feel like leafing through the seasons to give examples though). every time Homer is stupid and inconsiderate in the classic era, you may be watching Jerkass Homer. stupid inconsiderate Homer is being self-referenced and satirized in Homer's Enemy.
in the modern era, Jerkass Homer carries a bad connotation, because he's Jerkass Homer all the time for no reason and it's not funny... you know how your parents told you, "if you make that face any longer, your face'll be stuck!" well that's what happened. rather than Homer's bad qualities being exaggerated for a quick joke or self-parody (or for the joke that is Homer's Enemy), Scully or whoever transitioned Homer's character from [sweet baseline elevated sometimes to wacky cartoon character with Homer's wacky characteristics] to [wacky cartoon character period]. again, I don't blame Homer's Enemy for this. but I also do recognize that it would be hard in the Scully era to keep a grounded show that could also continue the level of self-parody that gradually (by necessity) furthered from season to season. to blame O&W for exponential wackification, though, is just not right in my opinion. because if anything, they slowed the level of meta-humor and cartoon caricature that had been progressing from season 4 through season 6 (often, it seems to me, sacrificing some laughs).
I think Scully just took the easy way out and decided to make the show more appealing to kids and a less educated audinece...and viola! It's a cartoon, so let's just push the envelope and make the show zanier, wackier and more POOCHIFIED and give Homer access to a time machine! Seriously, what happened to Homer is what happened to the show--it became dumber, louder and more obnixious and became the worst kind of comedy--a dumb comedy that thinks it's smart....but I also do recognize that it would be hard in the Scully era to keep a grounded show that could also continue the level of self-parody that gradually (by necessity) furthered from season to season.
EDIT: And what's starting to piss me off is since Homer's been a braindead, cartoony jackass for so long, people think the first 8 seasons of Homer being depicted as I stated above is the fluke.
Last edited by The Governor; 07-27-2010 at 02:31 PM.
for me, homer's behaviour in homer's enemy was spot on. unintentionally idiotic and blind to his own negligence . in no way was he loud, dumb or obnoxious . it was just that frank grimes' presence throughout the episode and uncartoon-like level headedness distinguished homer's idiocy more than anyone else had before. we never really studied homer's character or how he lives his life before sane frank grimes came along. normally the show is so unattached to reality we never realise how stupid he is, but homer's enemy was dedicated to showing what it would be like if a real man, who struggled to get by in life met his exact cartoon opposite.
I think Jake, that you already recognise the purpose of this episode , and why its clever in drawing attention to the differences between cartoons and reality. I for one think frank grimes exaggerated homer's idiocy by asking us, the audience , how is it a stupid, dumb witted man has prospered in life and he hasn't . maybe its a depressing social commentary.
So, he admits Homer of "Enemy" was of a special case.
You just said a mouthful, Jimmy! But slow your roll--Grimes's existance was also cartoony as nobody had a life that was that CARTOONISHLY terrible. Also, we've seen bits and pieces of Homer's attitude at work over the years and we already knew he slept in at work, we knew he had new co-workers that didn't mind him (Mindy) and we knew he had a decent-sized house. We didn't need an unreal "real" Grimes to tell us this.it was just that frank grimes' presence throughout the episode and uncartoon-like level headedness distinguished homer's idiocy more than anyone else had before. we never really studied homer's character or how he lives his life before sane frank grimes came along. normally the show is so unattached to reality we never realise how stupid he is, but homer's enemy was dedicated to showing what it would be like if a real man, who struggled to get by in life met his exact cartoon opposite.
I GET IT, but what I find baffling is how people nowadays complain about Homer being too stupid, yet find this overrated episode the greatest thing since oxygen.I think Jake, that you already recognise the purpose of this episode , and why its clever in drawing attention to the differences between cartoons and reality. I for one think frank grimes exaggerated homer's idiocy by asking us, the audience , how is it a stupid, dumb witted man has prospered in life and he hasn't . maybe its a depressing social commentary.
Homer's Enemy is fucking hilarious
end of story
and honestly if people judged works of art by what shit came later as a direct result then everyone would consider Psycho to be the worst movie of all time.
Psycho influenced more awful cinema than possibly any other movie, ushering in the sequel, the twist ending, the popularity of serial killer movies, and it easily helped speed up the rise of the blockbuster.
if that doesn't convince you, then replace Psycho with Star Wars in my original post.
Good episode, with some hilarious moments, but a little overrated. I like Frank Grimes, his character, and the brilliant voice work by Hank Azaria. I also like the conflict with Homer and the outsider view on the craziness of the power plant workers. However the story with the factory didn't work for me, and as many people have said Homer is a bit too annoying, so I'm not going to give it top marks.
i just don't think it should be judged for the awful episodes it influenced anymore than Psycho or Star Wars should be judged for the awful films they influenced.
Top five episode, easily.
Jake: What if O&W believed that the show didn't have more than 4 seasons (or more than 2 seasons (or 1)) left in it, and that they needed to do a few things with The Simpsons which would have 'made sense' had the show ended at the right time? then would you have liked the episode (or at least seen it as fine enough)?
If so, I submit that your anger is with The Simpsons for screwing up and going past their prime, and not with the episode which would have been a success with you otherwise.
'sigh'....okay...FOR THE LAST TIME: I didn't like this the night it aired. I only had the previous 8 seasons to compare it to. My first impressions of this episode had nothing to do with the show not being cancelled in time, or watching Scully/Jean first, and then watching this as a rerun. The only difference in my views on this currently is now a generation weened on the Scully/Jean era thinks this overrated pile of puke is god's gift to Simpsonsdom. Honestly, I can't really blame that thought process though as if you've seen the worst of the worst Simpsons episodes first, you'll clamour over an episode soley on the basis it wasn't shit terrible.If so, I submit that your anger is with The Simpsons for screwing up and going past their prime, and not with the episode which would have been a success with you otherwise.
Really if you've seen Trash of the Titans, or Kidney Trouble before "Enemy" you'll wonder what the haters are complaining about, but if you've only see what preceded "Enemy" and watched the show in order, "Enemy" is a terrible shock to the system.
Truly excellent, in my Top 5
I just really love this episode. It's been my favourite for quite a while now. Hank Azaria was great as Frank Grimes, and it was really funny.
Favourite/least favourite by seasons that I own (somewhat stolen from Financial Panther):
3 - Dog of Death/When Flanders Failed 4 - Lisa's First Word/So it's Come to This: A Simpsons Clip Show 5 - Secrets of a Successful Marriage/Bart's Inner Child 6 - And Maggie Makes Three/Another Simpsons Clip Show 7 - Marge Be Not Proud/Bart the Fink 8 - Homer's Phobia/The Simpsons Spin-Off Showcase 9 - King of the Hill/Trash of the Titans 10 - Wild Barts Can't Be Broken/Maximum Homerdrive
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