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  • 5/5- Great episode though I still wish it didnt exsist.

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Thread: Rate and Review: The Principal and the Pauper



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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matty View Post
    Thing is, noone got the intentions of the episode by just watching it, so they had to explain them in the commentary. That's a sign that it's just poorly written: the episode fails to communicate to the audience what they want it to communicate. I don't get why people started defending the episode, because 'the explain it on the commentary!'
    I actually got their intentions when it originally aired and have defended the episode on these means long before there were any DVD commentaries to either reinforce my stance or to find that I was way off on their intent. I will concede that they could have been a little more upfront with the audience with their premise throughout the episode by tweaking some of the writing to get the point across.

    However I find the point was made in the ending by openly stating what the fan base in general would want.

    Oh yeah, 3.5/5
    Last edited by The Thompsons; 03-02-2012 at 09:27 AM.

  2. #122
    not a mass boarder qwertyuio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matty View Post
    Thing is, noone got the intentions of the episode by just watching it, so they had to explain them in the commentary. That's a sign that it's just poorly written: the episode fails to communicate to the audience what they want it to communicate. I don't get why people started defending the episode, because 'the explain it on the commentary!'
    It can happen. When you fail to get an interpretation from a work, it can be because of its bad communication qualities or because of your own bias at the beginning. And that was what happened to me, for example. I watched this episode as canon and not as an experiment. Then again, I don't think that just because it was done in purpose the idea is worthier, but that definitely requires a change of judgement. You can't be screwing against continuity in a non-canon episode, you can't expect to follow the normal logic of the series in something that isn't meant to. And as I don't care that much for this kind of "experiment", I have always had some respect to it because of its convincing execution, dynamic pacing and good insertion of jokes, while I understand that some of my cons are product of expecting something that this episode is not trying to reach. That's why my rating got increased, in summary.
    Season 21 ratings (A.K.A. Qwert's Generic Sig Vol. II)

    Homer The Whopper 7/10 Bart Gets A 'Z' 8.5/10 The Great Wife Hope 9/10 Treehouse Of Horror XX 9.17/10
    The Devil Wears Nada 9.5/10 Pranks And Greens 6.5/10 Rednecks And Broomsticks 7.5/10 Oh Brother, Where Bart Thou? 8.5/10
    Thursdays With Abie 5.5/10 Once Upon A Time In Springfield 10/10 Million Dollar Maybe 4.5/10 Boy Meets Curl 6/10
    The Color Yellow 9/10 Postcards From The Wedge 9.5/10

  3. #123
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    This episode is genius, it's designed to make the die-hards mad, it's making fun of the people who can't handle it's premise and get mad over a cartoon, you go Ken Keeler.

    I f'n loved this one... Fat Tony's character was the one they ruined for no reason... there was no point to it all.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuchAdoAboutNothing View Post
    This episode is genius, it's designed to make the die-hards mad, it's making fun of the people who can't handle it's premise and get mad over a cartoon, you go Ken Keeler.
    Yeah, all cartoons are shitty, unimaginative and lousy by default, why complain? I hate to shatter your ego, but they created a shitty episode and in the DVD commentary tried to cover their asses with "uh, yeah, we did it to make fun of people who hate change." They knew it was a bad episode and they found a way to dare you not to like it.

    You can take any bad to shitty episode can call it an experiment. Really. I wonder if in the commentary for the Greatest Story Ever D'oh'd if the staff, grasping for straws, will say: "Yeah, it was an experiment for us because we wanted Sasha Baraon Cohen to piss off the audience with his ranting so we did a great job based on the reviews!" and how many people will suddenly will recant their original review and say: "Yeah, I see their point--those people on that darn internet are SO picky and the staff is so clever! I was WAY to hard on this and now I'd give it a B plus!".
    Well, ya'know if you stay positive and forget about trivial things like "proper characterization," "Satire," and "emotional depth" watching new Simpsons episodes can be a seemingly enjoyable lie.

  5. #125
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    "Yeah, all cartoons are shitty, unimaginative and lousy by default, why complain? I hate to shatter your ego, but they created a shitty episode and in the DVD commentary tried to cover their asses with "uh, yeah, we did it to make fun of people who hate change." They knew it was a bad episode and they found a way to dare you not to like it."

    -Le Jake

    I'm sorry good sir, I forgot that you know everything ever.

    I wasn't inferring cartoons were bad in general I was inferring that they shouldn't be taken so seriously that you get upset when someone has a different opinion or viewpoint... or in this case a different creative idea.

    Please except the fact that someone has a different opinion, and don't just assume they swayed me on some lame commentary.

    I liked this episode when it first aired all those years ago, and assumed all these things about it all those years ago when it first aired.

    I actually agree with you that the commentary does sound way too defensive.

    I just don't understand how you can say without one fathom of a doubt that they are totally (100%) lying on the commentary covering for the episode in question.

    I wasn't trying to set you off, I just wanted to share my opinion.

    You don't make friends with salad... or by randomly berating them.

    P.S. I usually love your posts and I'm not trying to get you mad here.

    I'm just simply asking how do you know the actual person; Ken Keeler, really and truly isn't proud of this episode.

    To me the whole Fit Tony becomes Fat Tony thing was way f'n worse, and maybe they actually were trying to get us upset and wreck a character just for the fun of it.
    Last edited by The Angry Animated Comedy Nerd; 03-07-2012 at 11:06 AM.

  6. #126
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    I never hated this episode SOLEY on the 'change' made to Skinner, I hated it because of how overly dramatic it felt, and not in the 'so-bad, it's good kind' of way. And why are you taking so much stock in what Keeler said? It's JUST a DVD commentary!

    I'm just simply asking how do you know the actual person; Ken Keeler, really and truly isn't proud of this episode.
    I'm sure he's very proud of it, and that's why he sounded so defensive of it, but to me, he sounded like he was BS'ing his way in trying to make this critic proof so the "haters of change" like me were put in our place. Some people, because they feel the need to cheer on their beloved writers, fell for it.

    I wasn't inferring cartoons were bad in general I was inferring that they shouldn't be taken so seriously that you get upset when someone has a different opinion or viewpoint... or in this case a different creative idea.
    Cartoons are a form of entertainment like, sports, live-action tv shows, reality TV, ect. I'm sure fans of NASCAR would love it if I said: "it's just cars going around in circles 490 times, why so serious!?".

  7. #127
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    Quote bubbles aren't working for me today.

    "They knew it was a bad episode and they found a way to dare you not to like it."

    "And why are you taking so much stock in what Keeler said? It's JUST a DVD commentary!"

    - Le jake



    That's what I'm saying... I liked the episode before the commentary and before I even heard the commentray 'I FELT' it was designed to make the die-hards mad, it's making fun of the people who get mad over a cartoon.

    Then I heard the commentary and Keeler confirmed 'MY THOUGHTS' I already had about the episode years ago.

    But at the same time hearing him ramble about lost speeches that would have made his script clearer and that people are strange for loving something so much that's not real made me like him and the episode less.

    But I still love it to this day.

    Al Jean's 'great' Fit Tony/Fat Tony idea... that's what I don't get.

    It was just plain dumb status quo garbage, you wanna kill Tony and replace him, fine enough.

    But have the balls to replace him with a new character, not a crappy clone we know is not really him, it was all simply done just for a bad joke.
    Last edited by The Angry Animated Comedy Nerd; 03-07-2012 at 11:28 AM.

  8. #128
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    I liked this epidoe because of its somewhat ballsy storyline, evidenced by the ongoing debate nearly 15 years after the show aired. What I didn't like about it was the fact that Skinner/Tamzarian's long-established characterization was cast aside and a nearly polar opposite one was put in its place with no rationalization for doing so. This was the reason, I feel, that the commentary was so defensive; not because they wanted sway the critics of the ep but to give us some reason for making the changes they did, which was unsuccessful IMHO. Part of good writing requires at least some level of consistency, and in regards to Skinner there was no buildup to this ep. If it were taken out of consideration for his character there would be little issue, but unfortunately that cannot be done.

  9. #129
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    Some very interesting views on this one.

  10. #130
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    What I didn't like about it was the fact that Skinner/Tamzarian's long-established characterization was cast aside and a nearly polar opposite one was put in its place with no rationalization for doing so.
    I don't get this argument. I find it completely plausible that Skinner/Tamzarian was an outcast in his youth and was searching for an identity. In order to straighten himself up he joined the army and when his CO was MIA (love the acronyms!) he couldn't bear to break the news to Skinner's mother so he decided to take on a new identity as Agatha Skinner's son. So I think there was plenty of rational in introducing a previously unknown character trait in Skinner/Tamzarian.

    Part of good writing requires at least some level of consistency, and in regards to Skinner there was no buildup to this ep. If it were taken out of consideration for his character there would be little issue, but unfortunately that cannot be done.
    I take it you've never seen "Sweet Seymour Skinner's Badassss Song"?
    Last edited by The Thompsons; 03-07-2012 at 01:06 PM.

  11. #131
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    Plus they probably wanted it to be ironic in the fact that Skinner was just like Bart in a way.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuchAdoAboutNothing View Post

    That's what I'm saying... I liked the episode before the commentary and before I even heard the commentray 'I FELT' it was designed to make the die-hards mad, it's making fun of the people who get mad over a cartoon.
    Again, the modifier "cartoon" is not needed. What makes a cartoon any less worthy of debate than any other live-action show, reality TV, or sporting event?

    EDIT: this is from a few pages back:

    "if the premise of the episode was to, as Oakley explains, show a group of people who like things exactly the way they are, then do it in the 'Homer's Enemy' manner. assemble an intelligent plot with sensible development (of character too) and structure your moral and meta point around that plot. do not assemble a bastard story and infuse it with godawful sitcommish dialogue, nonsensical twists and turns and justify it by lampshading it at the end. a lampshaded piece of crap is still a piece of crap."

  13. #133
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    Again, the modifier "cartoon" is not needed. What makes a cartoon any less worthy of debate than any other live-action show, reality TV, or sporting event?
    Again, some people find it strange that people invest themselves so wholeheartily in things that in the end are trivial whether it be a sporting event or TV show.

    "
    if the premise of the episode was to, as Oakley explains, show a group of people who like things exactly the way they are, then do it in the 'Homer's Enemy' manner
    I believe the premise of this episode was if a normal indvidual were in the Simpsons universe what his reaction would be. Kind of comapring apples and oranges.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Thompsons View Post
    I believe the premise of this episode was if a normal indvidual were in the Simpsons universe what his reaction would be. Kind of comapring apples and oranges.
    The point was that was a different experiment and it was done WELL, according to Ben Chan. This experiment in TPaTP failed.

  15. #135
    The lesson here is, never try Inblackestnight's Avatar
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    My point, The_Thompsons, was that Tamzarian was still a screwup in the Army as well, even when Skinner took him under his wing. The Army never straighten him up or provided him a new identity, Skinner's mother did. Sweet Seymour Skinner's Badassss Song is one of many sources that refutes the characterization in this ep. Tamzarian was never a responsible leader in any of the flashbacks in this ep compared to all the others that predates it. I enjoy the irony that Much... mentions, and also find it plausible that Tamzarian was an outcast in his youth, but all the military experiences we have been shown prior to Pauper all point to the discaplinarian we know and love.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inblackestnight View Post
    My point, The_Thompsons, was that Tamzarian was still a screwup in the Army as well, even when Skinner took him under his wing. The Army never straighten him up or provided him a new identity, Skinner's mother did. Sweet Seymour Skinner's Badassss Song is one of many sources that refutes the characterization in this ep. Tamzarian was never a responsible leader in any of the flashbacks in this ep compared to all the others that predates it. I enjoy the irony that Much... mentions, and also find it plausible that Tamzarian was an outcast in his youth, but all the military experiences we have been shown prior to Pauper all point to the discaplinarian we know and love.
    I guess I don't take the exact continuity that seriously when watching this episode. Plus, this change was for the better as it added to Skinner's character and made him more interesting. O&W and Keeler did indeed bend some of the rules but it didn't change my view of Skinner as a disciplinarian. Since we're reposting old posts, this sums it up nicely:

    There's so much talk of this episode ruining Skinner's character, but it really didn't ruin or change him at all. He still has his war-filled past and his twisted relationship with Agnes, he still was the principal of Springfield Elementary all these years; everything that happened to him over the course of the show happened to him and him alone; and his personality and character still solely belong to him. The only thing that changed was the fact that he wasn't raised by Agnes as a child, but who cares? We never got a glimpse into Skinner's childhood anyway, so it doesn't make a difference to me at all.

    The episode itself offers an interesting concept: a man so lost and without identity that he takes over the life of another, eventually coming to consider that life and identity his own. This exploration of Skinner wasn't disrespectful or detrimental to his character either. The choices he made in his past added a new layer to his character, one that solidifies and adds to the aura of desperation and sadness that already existed around him.

    It also creates a more complex dynamic between Skinner and Agnes than the previous one of strict, controlling mother and passive son; here it proved that they were more related than ever before as they were both desolate, purposeless souls until they decided to become mother and son.
    Last edited by The Thompsons; 03-07-2012 at 03:14 PM.

  17. #137
    The lesson here is, never try Inblackestnight's Avatar
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    You're right Thompson, this episode did very little to affect Skinner's life events, which I don't dispute, but what it did do is reverse Skinner's personality in a way that I don't really buy. There has been nothing prior to this ep, and very little if anything after, to suggest that he has been anything but a straight-laced 'square' and moma's boy his entire adult life. Neither his combat experience nor his desire to fully become the real Skinner can completely hide his original personality, which we've had practically no clues of beyond Pauper. This is where your point about taking an animated comedy too seriously comes into play for me because I'm trying to look at this from a realistic perspective, and the Simpsons is far from realistic. I see this episode for what it is; an interesting twist on a beloved character that may not make much sense if you look at him as a whole but that doesn't necessarily make for a bad story. I enjoyed Pauper, I just wish we had more on this plotline to create some continuity.

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inblackestnight View Post
    You're right Thompson, this episode did very little to affect Skinner's life events, which I don't dispute, but what it did do is reverse Skinner's personality in a way that I don't really buy. There has been nothing prior to this ep, and very little if anything after, to suggest that he has been anything but a straight-laced 'square' and moma's boy his entire adult life. Neither his combat experience nor his desire to fully become the real Skinner can completely hide his original personality, which we've had practically no clues of beyond Pauper. This is where your point about taking an animated comedy too seriously comes into play for me because I'm trying to look at this from a realistic perspective, and the Simpsons is far from realistic. I see this episode for what it is; an interesting twist on a beloved character that may not make much sense if you look at him as a whole but that doesn't necessarily make for a bad story. I enjoyed Pauper, I just wish we had more on this plotline to create some continuity.
    It's not like this is the first time that this has happened. Take a look at Hurricane Neddy. His childhood persona is a strong, strong contrast from the Flanders we knew before, and in fact we learn that his entire personality is based on suppressed anger. Personally, I don't see how The Principal and the Pauper did anything different. I don't think they ruined Skinner's character so much as they added a new dimension to it.
    Favourite/least favourite by seasons that I own (somewhat stolen from Financial Panther):

    3 - Dog of Death/When Flanders Failed 4 - Lisa's First Word/So it's Come to This: A Simpsons Clip Show 5 - Secrets of a Successful Marriage/Bart's Inner Child 6 - And Maggie Makes Three/Another Simpsons Clip Show 7 - Marge Be Not Proud/Bart the Fink 8 - Homer's Phobia/The Simpsons Spin-Off Showcase 9 - King of the Hill/Trash of the Titans 10 - Wild Barts Can't Be Broken/Maximum Homerdrive

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Safety Inspector View Post
    Boring unfunny garbage- and it is enough of it
    1.0\10, F and my Bottom 10
    Worst episode of the worst Scully season
    In the same way.
    S9 rating: 24th place
    My Simpsons Season Ranking:

    8>7>4>5>6>3>15>10>1>21>2>11>20>13>12>17>14>16>18>22>>9>19

  20. #140
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    A- i like it.

  21. #141
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    Still painfully boring and unfunny. 2/5.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teddy View Post
    I was searching Burns and Smithers in July of 2012 and found this site in the results. At first, NHC was blocked on my laptop (for reasons I shall not say) so I used my Dad's laptop to look at it. For a whole month, I just searched R&R and Mr. Burns and Smithers threads. Then I decided to sign up.

  22. #142


    Quote Originally Posted by Tamaki Suoh View Post
    Just rewatched it and really liked it. There's so much talk of this episode ruining Skinner's character, but it really didn't ruin or change him at all. He still has his war-filled past and his twisted relationship with Agnes, he still was the principal of Springfield Elementary all these years; everything that happened to him over the course of the show happened to him and him alone; and his personality and character still solely belong to him. The only thing that changed was the fact that he wasn't raised by Agnes as a child, but who cares? We never got a glimpse into Skinner's childhood anyway, so it doesn't make a difference to me at all.

    The episode itself offers an interesting concept: a man so lost and without identity that he takes over the life of another, eventually coming to consider that life and identity his own. This exploration of Skinner wasn't disrespectful or detrimental to his character either. The choices he made in his past added a new layer to his character, one that solidifies and adds to the aura of desperation and sadness that already existed around him.

    It also creates a more complex dynamic between Skinner and Agnes than the previous one of strict, controlling mother and passive son; here it proved that they were more related than ever before as they were both desolate, purposeless souls until they decided to become mother and son.

    The emotion and humor were also effective. The emotion wasn't overplayed and flowed with the story nicely, while the humor was good and offered no cringeworthy gags or out-of-place jokes. My only problem with the episode is the ending, which was very cheap and unsatisfying.

    Overall, A-.
    I disagree almost completely. It does change him and ruins him. There doesn´t need to be images of his childhood to know why he was how he was. It´s the logical thing in life. He was a momma´s boy and a loving authority figure and people like that grow up to be that. A momma´s boy doesn´t become a momma´s boy overnight, he´s made and I´m sure that is what everybody who watched the show expected Skinner to be. It was the logical thing before with Agnes being the totally controlling mother and Skinner the adoring son who had never lead a different life. It´s only logical. Changing him to a teenage hoodlum who willingly got into this life totally changes the character and ruins the life.

    It´s said that a funny character is somebody logical who is funny despite himself. If a character is obviously trying to do funny things and purposely doing the "funny" stuff, it diminishes it completely. I think this situation totally goes with it. The fact that Skinner chose to live this life totally changes the situation. Now it´s not a true momma´s boy who is both a square and a disciplinarian because there´s no other way for him to turn out like but a guy who was the TOTAL OPPPOSITE and who chose the situation, so there is nothing to blame but him. It totally changes the character and it´s past in relation to the Simpsons. Just in Grade School Confidential. When he starts telling Edna about his boring life and how sad and dissapointed he is with it. Or how the big reveal is that he´s a virgin. It TOTALLY changes with this revelation. It´s not the same at all to know he´s faking it.

    I totally agree with Shearer´s interpretation of the episode. And I couldn´t agree less with Keeler. They totally destroyed a guy who people liked for a dumb experiment that didn´t pan out. Nothing to me made me madder than the writer talking about how they did it but the result was great when it wasn´t. The scene they kept lauding was one of the worse of the episode if not the worst. When Skinner goes to his house for the first time and Agnes is "guiding" him thru the house and pretending he was the real skinner. It was terrible.

    F

  23. #143
    not a mass boarder qwertyuio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhzunam View Post
    I disagree almost completely. It does change him and ruins him. There doesn´t need to be images of his childhood to know why he was how he was. It´s the logical thing in life. He was a momma´s boy and a loving authority figure and people like that grow up to be that. A momma´s boy doesn´t become a momma´s boy overnight, he´s made and I´m sure that is what everybody who watched the show expected Skinner to be. It was the logical thing before with Agnes being the totally controlling mother and Skinner the adoring son who had never lead a different life. It´s only logical. Changing him to a teenage hoodlum who willingly got into this life totally changes the character and ruins the life.

    It´s said that a funny character is somebody logical who is funny despite himself. If a character is obviously trying to do funny things and purposely doing the "funny" stuff, it diminishes it completely. I think this situation totally goes with it. The fact that Skinner chose to live this life totally changes the situation. Now it´s not a true momma´s boy who is both a square and a disciplinarian because there´s no other way for him to turn out like but a guy who was the TOTAL OPPPOSITE and who chose the situation, so there is nothing to blame but him. It totally changes the character and it´s past in relation to the Simpsons. Just in Grade School Confidential. When he starts telling Edna about his boring life and how sad and dissapointed he is with it. Or how the big reveal is that he´s a virgin. It TOTALLY changes with this revelation. It´s not the same at all to know he´s faking it.

    I totally agree with Shearer´s interpretation of the episode. And I couldn´t agree less with Keeler. They totally destroyed a guy who people liked for a dumb experiment that didn´t pan out. Nothing to me made me madder than the writer talking about how they did it but the result was great when it wasn´t. The scene they kept lauding was one of the worse of the episode if not the worst. When Skinner goes to his house for the first time and Agnes is "guiding" him thru the house and pretending he was the real skinner. It was terrible.

    F
    I'm not the greatest defender of this premise, but saying that Skinner's back story is absurd because his personality can't develop suddenly implies that his character is realistic to strong terms, and the fact is it's stylistically exaggerated in the name of comedy. Skinner represents such a strong extreme of dependance on his mother that, if it wasn't backed by a humorous emphasis, we would be complaining again and again about it being stupid or unrealistic. It's a similar thing for me with Hurricane Neddy: if we think that Ned's extreme kindness is a normally developed trait, we are giving the illusion of normality to something that is incredibly exaggerated and doesn't correspond to any human portrayal.

    On the other hand, it doesn't change anything about how the character works in the series. In these terms it's as relevant as knowing that Abe was a Flying Hellfish or that Homer lost his hair and intelligence due to an injection; Abe is still a senile man telling his old absurd stories, and Homer is still bald and dumb. The Skinner that the Springfieldians knew was the Skinner that lived with Agnes, and given that he was quite young when he joined the army, I think it would be easy for him to remain virgin till the moment of Grade School Confidential (and on the other hand I would find it pretty normal that he faked his identity to the town... since when has Skinner been known for his sincerity?). In the end of Principal And The Pauper he comes back to his routine as soon as Agnes orders him to control himself. In fact, this can be seen as a flaw of the episode, because it is so focused on being a "case closed" experiment that the final part is incredibly rushed in order to get to the statu quo. So probably if they changed Skinner's everyday attitude the episode would be more solid, if riskier.

    I think this episode has some interesting ideas. For instance, it reveals that the dependance of Skinner on his mother is not caused primarily by his personality but by Agnes' conviction in her dominating role. It takes a look at their relationship as a symbiosis; Seymour (or Armin) wouldn't be the same without Agnes and Agnes wouldn't be the same without Seymour, it seems that their relationship is built on inner rules that are not followed in other contexts (that is, if Seymour had another mother he wouldn't be a wimp, and if Agnes had another son (in fact, that is seen with the real Seymour) she wouldn't be able to take that role. On the other hand, I actually see the main point you complain about the other way; the fact that the relationship between Seymour and the town is based on faking a reality builds a really awkward scenario.
    Last edited by qwertyuio; 08-25-2012 at 06:31 PM.

  24. #144


    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyuio View Post
    I'm not the greatest defender of this premise, but saying that Skinner's back story is absurd because his personality can't develop suddenly implies that his character is realistic to strong terms, and the fact is it's stylistically exaggerated in the name of comedy. Skinner represents such a strong extreme of dependance on his mother that, if it wasn't backed by a humorous emphasis, we would be complaining again and again about it being stupid or unrealistic. It's a similar thing for me with Hurricane Neddy: if we think that Ned's extreme kindness is a normally developed trait, we are giving the illusion of normality to something that is incredibly exaggerated and doesn't correspond to any human portrayal.

    On the other hand, it doesn't change anything about how the character works in the series. In these terms it's as relevant as knowing that Abe was a Flying Hellfish or that Homer lost his hair and intelligence due to an injection; Abe is still a senile man telling his old absurd stories, and Homer is still bald and dumb. The Skinner that the Springfieldians knew was the Skinner that lived with Agnes, and given that he was quite young when he joined the army, I think it would be easy for him to remain virgin till the moment of Grade School Confidential (and on the other hand I would find it pretty normal that he faked his identity to the town... since when has Skinner been known for his sincerity?). In the end of Principal And The Pauper he comes back to his routine as soon as Agnes orders him to control himself. In fact, this can be seen as a flaw of the episode, because it is so focused on being a "case closed" experiment that the final part is incredibly rushed in order to get to the statu quo. So probably if they changed Skinner's everyday attitude the episode would be more solid, if riskier.

    I think this episode has some interesting ideas. For instance, it reveals that the dependance of Skinner on his mother is not caused primarily by his personality but by Agnes' conviction in her dominating role. It takes a look at their relationship as a symbiosis; Seymour (or Armin) wouldn't be the same without Agnes and Agnes wouldn't be the same without Seymour, it seems that their relationship is built on inner rules that are not followed in other contexts (that is, if Seymour had another mother he wouldn't be a wimp, and if Agnes had another son (in fact, that is seen with the real Seymour) she wouldn't be able to take that role. On the other hand, I actually see the main point you complain about the other way; the fact that the relationship between Seymour and the town is based on faking a reality builds a really awkward scenario.
    Well I have to disagree. First in the fact that Skinner doesn´t work in the reality of the world. Yes it could be exagerated but it´s not unreal. I known people exactly like Skinner and relationships with the Mother like that. And even if it´s exagerated, like most of the Simpsons, it wasn´t like that at the time. The characters worked in that they aren´t as unrealistic as most cartoons. Thus there was a certain coherence that disappeared in later episode but were very much the part at this time. And I don´t feel it´s the same thing as the examples you gave. Homer changing his hair was just a temporary change and it´s totally logical that Abe was a good soldier in his past and now is a crazy old guy. But faking a reality totally changes a person and thus a character. I do think Skinner being a virgin changes because of it. When it was him being Skinner, you think it´s totally right with the way he is. After the change, you think it´s a lie or it doesn´t make sense since he´s acting the way he is or choosing to be so. He has a choice which he didn´t have before and I think it´s key.

  25. #145
    disco fuck yourself Handsome B. Wonderful's Avatar
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    So what you're saying is that people and their personality is completely and 100% exactly like their parents or childhood, and they will never change?

  26. #146


    Quote Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful View Post
    So what you're saying is that people and their personality is completely and 100% exactly like their parents or childhood, and they will never change?
    I´m saying that childhood and parents are big impacts in life and especially in cases like this with momma´s boys and the Simpsons had set the reality to be just like that with a domineering mother and the typical way of being of a momma´s boy when they suddenly decided "you know what let throw away all that for a couple of dumb jokes" and that is a total BS move. And for people to pretend that it doesn´t change the fact that before he was born and raised this way but now he´s just pretending to be that way because he´s a fraud is a big leap. Of course if you think it´s more belieavable that he´s pretending to be like that than he was raised that way and that doesn´t change anything, then that´s you but I doubt that is why the episode is basically in the hall of shame of Simpsons episodes.

  27. #147
    Stonecutter Infinity183's Avatar
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    I have a bit of contempt for this episode for what is probably a fairly different reason than most people. For the most part, I actually really enjoy the plot that the writers set up, not to mention a lot of the jokes work quite well, too. As shocking and discomforting as Principal Skinner's revelation is, I do believe that they develop a pretty thoughtful and heartfelt backstory as to how he took over for his real counterpart, although I do think it seems weird that Agnes doesn't completely deny him to be her real son. However, after the plot has been set up and the 'real' Seymour Skinner becomes the new principal, the story goes downhill. The writers decided to focus way too much on the Harry Shearer Seymour Skinner when I think there was room for a far more interesting resolution had they examined the Martin Sheen Skinner a bit more instead. This was someone who the Shearer Skinner completely admired in the Vietnam - a role model, if you will - and so I think he deserves far more respect than he ends up receiving upon returning. Rather, he's basically portrayed as a downright antagonist, completely shunned as the principal of Springfield Elementary even though it was his dream in the first place. His protégé did him a huge favor by sparing Agnes from devastating news, yet what ultimately comes of the situation for the real Skinner is harsh expulsion. The writers just cop out by simply saying, "who cares?" over the fact that Principal Skinner is a fraud and reinstate him at Springfield Elementary without any kind of climactic story arc, unfairly spitting out another potent character in the process.

    3.5/5
    Last edited by Infinity183; 10-02-2012 at 04:55 PM.

  28. #148
    Da belle of da ball Swoony's Avatar
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    I actually really love this episode and don't think it ruins Skinners character at all, it just adds to it. It's just a damn name people.

    *prepares to get flamed*
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiacalRoboKiller View Post
    @ThankYouComeAgain What the hell could you be fapping too in class? What could possibly turn you on in class? "Aww yeah pass out those rulers" "Yes George Washington was the first president of the United States, you dirty girl! AWWWWW"


  29. #149
    disco fuck yourself Handsome B. Wonderful's Avatar
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    I don't like it because it's boring and has shitty jokes. Like the rest of season 9.

  30. Thumbs Up To This Post by: Teddy

  31. #150
    Don't be a mediocrity Teddy's Avatar
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    Well said Handsome... Well said.

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