R&R Homer's Phobia

[Stevie V. Scrivello]

Man, anyone else watch this episode and get all mushy and nostalgic for the days when The Simpsons could tackle "current issues" and not be all preachy and unfunny a la "The Monkey Suit"? (Then again, back in the day, they didn't really feel the need to tackle "current issues)

Well, I did, anyway. Funny episode, nice plotting, and John Waters! Go John Waters!

The ending did feel a bit contrived, though, I have to admit. Still as far as gay-themed episodes go, "There's Something About Marrying" has nothing on this one. So:

4.5/5

[Jens. E]

5/5
An Awsome episode, pretty god plot but a little bit wierd that homer thinks bart is gay. Anyway i still thinks this is one of season 8's best episode with the funny character John.

[DaRick]

(just addressing a controversial episode by bumping this thread)

Homer's Phobia. Ah yes. An episode which has been somewhat divisive since its airing (just look at the SNPP reviews). Obviously, this is because it's about homosexuals. Incidentally, I just saw this and...well...I thought it was great. It is true that the third act wasn't quite as strong as the first two acts. But then again, the first two acts were terrific, with no boring or pointless bits to be found. Indeed, I found little in the way of a subplot - there was only one central theme. However, that is probably a good thing in this case, as any subplot would have detracted from the episode's focus on homosexuality.

The best part of the episode is that it focus on homosexuality without deriding it to an extreme.

If this aired during the Scully Era, I'm almost positive there would be criticism.

To rebut the commentator who said this very episode would've been criticised (more, I assume) in the Scully era...Scully would have incorporated more outlandish elements and he would've likely focused less on Bart and more on Homer. With this in mind, the episode would have been derided simply becuase it would look like an all out anti-homosexual rant, as opposed to a father protecting his son (and family) from what he sees as adversity.

I admit that the reindeer part does see Homer promote animal cruelty, but Homer has threatened to do worse things in non-Scully episodes. For instance, do you remember Whacking Day? In that episode, he threatened to brutually beat a whole pile of snakes to death for no discernible reason. At least here, he had a reason, as pathetic as it was. Now I realise that I haven't really countered you, so here goes: if Scully left this episode unadultered and produced it, I doubt it would be subject to any more criticism than it is now (unless Scully's name is enough to inspire hatred). As it is, it already attracts criticism, as I pointed out earlier, so I don't really see your point.

On to the episode then. The first act is very good. It is a nice setup for the outburst of prejudice by Homer that sees the episode kick into the second act. There are a whole lot of funny moments, for instance, so it rarely seems like an unneccessarily slow buildup a la Mountain Madness. For instance, the dead midget, the liquor bottle, the pogo stick incident and Homer's vinyl collection. I also found the mannerisms of John pretty funny, as he toed the line without quite looking like a stereotype.

The second act is arguably the best, surpassing a stellar first act. This act deals with Homer's prejudiced reaction to John's, uh, lifestyle choices. Although some people hated Homer's reaction, I found it quite hilarious. Admittedly, he does appear to be a stereotypical homophobe initially. However, Homer's naivete and penchant for humorous one-liners ("He didn't give you gay? Did he? Did he?) allow me to brush over this. The element that saves him from conforming to this stereotype is Homer's relationship with Bart and his desire to protect him. I've already discussed this earlier, so I see no point in discussing it any more. Their experiences at the gay steel mill ("Has the whole world gone gay?") are truly memorable and really funny.

I admit that the third act sags. It's not bad by normal standards, however, next to the first two, it does represent a dissappointment. The good one-liners seem to dry up almost completely, while the premise (hunting) takes too long to reach its conclusion. Luckily, the ending fires in a few humourous stabs at gays (To the steelworks of America: Keep reaching for that rainbow!) without seemingly overly offensive. Although many people hated Homer's reconciliation with John, I found it slightly humorous ("Well, Homer, I won your respect, and all I had to do was save your life."). It serves to prove my point that Homer wasn't an extreme paradigm of a homophobic, more a man protecting his family from forces he was afraid of.

After a lengthy consideration of what to give this episode, I award it an A. I do this partially because of the excellent way in which the episode deals with homosexuality, plus the last-gasp salvaging of the third act. John's manner also gave the episode a boost, plus the quality animation. The characterisation was naturally unorthodox due to the episode's subject matter, so I will not degrade the episode for any quirks which would otherwise be seen as inaccuracies in a Simpsons character. In short, I highly recommend the episode.

[banana plantation]

compared to other simpsons episodes, 4/5, otherwise 5/5

[tom cody]

4/5, terrific episode

[-Bart-]

awesome episode
4/5 or 5/5 i'll decide later

[TheForbiddenDonut]

To rebut the commentator who said this very episode would've been criticised (more, I assume) in the Scully era...Scully would have incorporated more outlandish elements and he would've likely focused less on Bart and more on Homer. With this in mind, the episode would have been derided simply becuase it would look like an all out anti-homosexual rant, as opposed to a father protecting his son (and family) from what he sees as adversity.

I'm fully aware that Scully would have made it far worse, and come to think of it, my reasoning there didn't make much sense (i.e. if it aired in the Scully era it would probably be seen as a beacon of greatness amid all of the garbage he produced, given how much praise 'Homer's Phobia' gets as a classic era episode). So yeah, I would probably repeal that statement as of now. I still think it's one of the most overrated episodes of all time, but that Scully statement was definitely pushing it.

I admit that the reindeer part does see Homer promote animal cruelty, but Homer has threatened to do worse things in non-Scully episodes. For instance, do you remember Whacking Day? In that episode, he threatened to brutually beat a whole pile of snakes to death for no discernible reason. At least here, he had a reason, as pathetic as it was.

Well, I find there to be quite a difference. First of all, Whacking Day was an episode that didn't take itself seriously; the snakes were as cartoony as could be and the entire episode was a ridiculous farce, and I think both these elements downplay the animal cruelty aspect. Homer's willingness to whack snakes definitely came with reason: it's tradition for one thing, and it's entirely in character for Homer to follow the majority, who were entirely behind the whacking. In 'Homer's Phobia', Homer definitely has a reason, but the episode definitely comes with a more serious tone. The act of shooting a deer automatically seems a bit more cruel than beating a snakes, in that, not only are the deer played up to be more realistic than the snakes, but it also involves actual killing, as opposed to beating. Second, in 'Whacking Day', Homer was doing what he wanted to do and wasn't trying to force himself on anyone. Here, Homer is commanding his own son to commit an act of killing, which is complete parental abuse. Thirdly, one must note Bart's tearing up as he protests that he doesn't wish to kill the deer, which makes Homer all the more cruel-hearted for making him do so. All of these reasons make Homer far more unlikeable in 'Homer's Phobia' than in 'Whacking Day', and perhaps any episode up to that point, for that matter.

Now I realise that I haven't really countered you, so here goes: if Scully left this episode unadultered and produced it, I doubt it would be subject to any more criticism than it is now (unless Scully's name is enough to inspire hatred). As it is, it already attracts criticism, as I pointed out earlier, so I don't really see your point.

Yeah, again, I fully acknowledge how ridiculous that statement was. Point taken.

[DaRick]

I'm fully aware that Scully would have made it far worse, and come to think of it, my reasoning there didn't make much sense (i.e. if it aired in the Scully era it would probably be seen as a beacon of greatness amid all of the garbage he produced, given how much praise 'Homer's Phobia' gets as a classic era episode). So yeah, I would probably repeal that statement as of now. I still think it's one of the most overrated episodes of all time, but that Scully statement was definitely pushing it.

I'm glad that you see my point, although I never said that it would be seen as a diamond among the crap if it was made in the Scully era. I just said that it wouldn't be subject to any more criticism in its current form. However, given the sub-par nature of many Scully episodes, your reasoning is probably valid anyway.

First of all, Whacking Day was an episode that didn't take itself seriously; the snakes were as cartoony as could be and the entire episode was a ridiculous farce, and I think both these elements downplay the animal cruelty aspect.

Yes, the episode was meant to be laughably stupid. In that regard, it works very well, which is why I think of it as an unsung classic. However, stating that "the snakes were as cartoony as could be" in order to justify animal cruelty is kind of lame, to be honest. Animal cruelty is animal cruelty. The reindeer scene depicted in Homer's Phobia was undeniably a promotion of animal cruelty, but so is this.

Homer's willingness to whack snakes definitely came with reason: it's tradition for one thing, and it's entirely in character for Homer to follow the majority, who were entirely behind the whacking.

I agree. A key aspect of Homer's personality throughout the series has been his naivete. In Homer's Phobia, I also believe that Homer thought he was following the views of the majority (certainly of Barney and Moe) by fearing homosexuality. This would therefore lead him to ask Bart to shoot the deer, in the hope that Bart would become 'straight'. His reasoning is obviously unacceptable, but to me, it demonstrates the correlation between Homer's Phobia and Whacking Day with regard to his actions.

In 'Homer's Phobia', Homer definitely has a reason, but the episode definitely comes with a more serious tone. The act of shooting a deer automatically seems a bit more cruel than beating a snakes (sic), in that, not only are the deer played up to be more realistic than the snakes, but it also involves actual killing, as opposed to beating.

I have already conveyed my thoughts on the so-called cartoonish nature of the snakes on Whacking Day. Now, I haven't seen Whacking Day for over a year, so I could be wrong. However, some of the imagery in Whacking Day suggested that the townspeople looked to beat the snakes to death (i.e - Homer whacking the heads off cardboard snakes). Again, the correlation between both episodes comes into vogue.

Second, in 'Whacking Day', Homer was doing what he wanted to do and wasn't trying to force himself on anyone. Here, Homer is commanding his own son to commit an act of killing, which is complete parental abuse.

Mostly correct. From what I recall, Lisa was the one convincing Homer not to whack the snakes. However, in Homer's Phobia, Homer was also doing what he wanted to do - get Bart to shoot a deer and keep away the 'evil' forces of homosexuality. All of your other points are valid, though.

Thirdly, one must note Bart's tearing up as he protests that he doesn't wish to kill the deer, which makes Homer all the more cruel-hearted for making him do so. All of these reasons make Homer far more unlikeable in 'Homer's Phobia' than in 'Whacking Day', and perhaps any episode up to that point, for that matter.

Lisa was also tearing up in Whacking Day as she tried to get Homer to stop beating the snakes - to no avail. Your statements are correct though, except possibly the last one. In Whacking Day, he doesn't come across as likeable, not with his blind ambition to beat a whole pile of benign snakes to death. Also, even at this point (before the Scully era), Homer has been loathsome so many times that you cannot possibly verify that he is at his most unlikeable here.

Well, there's my defence.

[TheForbiddenDonut]

Ooh, can't wait to respond to this. I'm too preoccupied at the moment, but expect this post to be edited sometime tomorrow with my reply.

Edit: with Jimmy C's comments and all that I just made a new post, oh well.

[Dr. Strangelove]

An all-time great episode. John Waters was fantastic. 5/5

[Nebuchanezzar]

Um...

The act of shooting a deer automatically seems a bit more cruel than beating a snakes, in that, not only are the deer played up to be more realistic than the snakes, but it also involves actual killing, as opposed to beating.

Everything else

What? Whacking Day was based off a tradition, Reindeer hunting is based off chauvanistic conventions. They're both equally as understandable/deplorable as one another, and I fail to see any. Whereas Homer was appealing to town culture in whacking day, he was appealing to accepted behaviour in homer's phobia. I feel that his behaviour was acceptable (kind of) in whacking day given how engrained the behaviour was. I feel his behaviour was acceptable (kind of) in Homer's Phobia given how scared he was for his son.

Yes, that's my opinion on the exciting world of snakes v reindeers.

[DaRick]

What? Whacking Day was based off a tradition, Reindeer hunting is based off chauvanistic conventions. They're both equally as understandable/deplorable as one another, and I fail to see any.

You're right, but I don't see your point. Plus, The Forbidden Donut and I did not even discuss the chauvinistic nature of reindeer hunting.

Whereas Homer was appealing to town culture in whacking day, he was appealing to accepted behaviour in homer's phobia. I feel that his behaviour was acceptable (kind of) in whacking day given how engrained the behaviour was. I feel his behaviour was acceptable (kind of) in Homer's Phobia given how scared he was for his son.

Your opinion appears to be a combination of mine and The Forbidden Donut's. But that doesn't make his behaviour acceptable. In no way can animal cruelty be condoned. It does, however, make his behaviour explicable, if you like.

[Nebuchanezzar]

You're right, but I don't see your point. Plus, The Forbidden Donut and I did not even discuss the chauvinistic nature of reindeer hunting.

You were both jousting with one another, debating the usefulness and heinousness of the reindeer scene. I was merely giving my opinion on the matter, as I found the discussion mildly interesting. My point, is that I believe that both of the scenes are as good as each other, and I was providing points to back up that view.

Your opinion appears to be a combination of mine and The Forbidden Donut's. But that doesn't make his behaviour acceptable. In no way can animal cruelty be condoned. It does, however, make his behaviour explicable, if you like.

This is taking mindless political sensitivity a bit too far don't you think? Homer was a concerned parent and went with one of the engrained features of the stereotypical man. I'm not saying I'm a fan of killing animals (although I do eat meat, so I'm a hypocrite), but I think that Homer's actions are justified and reasonable (probably moreso than whacking day, now that i think about it), and a debate centered around the reason and justification behind such actions is always going to be more interesting than one which is centered around an unwinnable debate about how morally corrupt beating snakes is, compared to how morally corrupt shooting a deer is.

For the record, the deer would likely have suffered comparatively little pain, so it's a much less harsh action that bludgeoning a snake to death. IMO.

[DaRick]

You were both jousting with one another, debating the usefulness and heinousness of the reindeer scene. I was merely giving my opinion on the matter, as I found the discussion mildly interesting. My point, is that I believe that both of the scenes are as good as each other, and I was providing points to back up that view.

Finally, I understand what you mean! No rebuttal necessary, then.

This is taking mindless political sensitivity a bit too far don't you think? Homer was a concerned parent and went with one of the engrained features of the stereotypical man. I'm not saying I'm a fan of killing animals (although I do eat meat, so I'm a hypocrite), but I think that Homer's actions are justified and reasonable (probably moreso than whacking day, now that i think about it), and a debate centered around the reason and justification behind such actions is always going to be more interesting than one which is centered around an unwinnable debate about how morally corrupt beating snakes is, compared to how morally corrupt shooting a deer is.

When we say killing animals in this instance, we shall just refer to the direct killing of an animal, otherwise I'm also a hypocrite. However, as disgustingly politically correct as I am being, I still don't feel that Homer's actions are actually reasonable. I never said that they were, I was just saying that The Forbidden Donut was wrong for singling out this episode for having these overtones, especially when considering the nature of classic-era episodes like Whacking Day - that was the initial basis for the debate. I will agree that they are explainable. But no more. As for your comments about our little debate, I do not even know whether to agree or disagree with you, because neither represented the initial basis of the debate. I also do not know whether this debate will head towards the justifying of the actions of Homer in both episodes or a relatively subjective snakes.vs.reindeers debate. It all depends on his response, which he promised me that he would deliver tommorow.

For the record, the deer would likely have suffered comparatively little pain, so it's a much less harsh action that bludgeoning a snake to death. IMO.

You're right, although you're kind of taking my side for making that comment (tacitly defending Homer's Phobia). That also wasn't what the debate between him and I was meant to be about.

[TheForbiddenDonut]

Yes, the episode was meant to be laughably stupid. In that regard, it works very well, which is why I think of it as an unsung classic. However, stating that "the snakes were as cartoony as could be" in order to justify animal cruelty is kind of lame, to be honest. Animal cruelty is animal cruelty. The reindeer scene depicted in Homer's Phobia was undeniably a promotion of animal cruelty, but so is this.

But I do think that over-the-top cartooniness can definitely underplay the notion of animal cruelty. Let's be honest: does 'animal cruelty' ever enter your mind when you watch Elmer Fudd hunting for Bugs Bunny?

I agree. A key aspect of Homer's personality throughout the series has been his naivete. In Homer's Phobia, I also believe that Homer thought he was following the views of the majority (certainly of Barney and Moe) by fearing homosexuality. This would therefore lead him to ask Bart to shoot the deer, in the hope that Bart would become 'straight'. His reasoning is obviously unacceptable, but to me, it demonstrates the correlation between Homer's Phobia and Whacking Day with regard to his actions.

Meh, I find keeping up with the same town tradition you have been participating in for years despite your daughter's views on animal cruelty to be much less deplorable than 'I'm going to force my reluctant teary-eyed son to illegally shoot a deer because Barney and Moe says so'. Even though in either case it's animal cruelty, the circumstances in the case of the latter make Homer's actions in 'Homer's Phobia' seem far worse than those in 'Whacking Day'.

I have already conveyed my thoughts on the so-called cartoonish nature of the snakes on Whacking Day. Now, I haven't seen Whacking Day for over a year, so I could be wrong. However, some of the imagery in Whacking Day suggested that the townspeople looked to beat the snakes to death (i.e - Homer whacking the heads off cardboard snakes). Again, the correlation between both episodes comes into vogue.

I don't think the episode ever made it clear whether the aim was to kill the snakes. Homer's training session, I think, doesn't imply anything about actually killing the snakes. Say you knock the head off a dummy while training for a martial arts fight or something. That doesn't mean you're actually going to kick your opponent's head off.

Mostly correct. From what I recall, Lisa was the one convincing Homer not to whack the snakes. However, in Homer's Phobia, Homer was also doing what he wanted to do - get Bart to shoot a deer and keep away the 'evil' forces of homosexuality. All of your other points are valid, though.

He was obviously doing what he wanted to do in both cases; my point was that in 'Homer's Phobia', what he wants requires parental abuse, which is yet another reason I find his actions to be worse in 'Homer's Phobia'.

Lisa was also tearing up in Whacking Day as she tried to get Homer to stop beating the snakes - to no avail. Your statements are correct though, except possibly the last one. In Whacking Day, he doesn't come across as likeable, not with his blind ambition to beat a whole pile of benign snakes to death. Also, even at this point (before the Scully era), Homer has been loathsome so many times that you cannot possibly verify that he is at his most unlikeable here.

Okay, I don't think Lisa was tearing up in 'Whacking Day'. She just asked him not to whack them, but to no avail. It hardly comparable to Bart's tears. And if Homer has been this bad during the classic era, it was most likely in episodes I tend to dislike ('Homer Loves Flanders' for instance).

What? Whacking Day was based off a tradition, Reindeer hunting is based off chauvanistic conventions. They're both equally as understandable/deplorable as one another, and I fail to see any. Whereas Homer was appealing to town culture in whacking day, he was appealing to accepted behaviour in homer's phobia. I feel that his behaviour was acceptable (kind of) in whacking day given how engrained the behaviour was. I feel his behaviour was acceptable (kind of) in Homer's Phobia given how scared he was for his son.

Yes, that's my opinion on the exciting world of snakes v reindeers.

I've already offered my reasoning on why I find forcing someone to shoot a reindeer worse than beating snakes, so whatever, to each his own