Rate & Review: "'Tis The Fifteenth Season" (FABF02)

[Jerry P.]

Originally posted by Shlomov2k3
Could anybody make out the Jimmy Stewart story? cause I couldn't.

Santa was in an awful pickle. Beatniks had given drugs to the reindeer, and they were no darn good, so Santa placed a call to Secretary of Defense Melvin Lear.

Does anyone know who sang O Pruny Night?

[Mike Scully]

Entertaining episode, well-structured, a touching emotional Christmasy atmosphere, with jokes, witty lines, sight gags, and parodies coming at rapid-fire Mirkinesque pace. A Christmas special that could well be remembered among other reknown TV Christmas specials.

BUT, classic Simpsons episode? No. Not the best Jean era episode either. The Flanders-Homer comes off as extremely forced. Especially when you consider that Flanders is supposed to be above jealousy as a Christian, there is not a reason for him to feel angry at Homer. In "Homer Loves Flanders", Flanders' annoyance made sense, since Homer didn't really deserve the adulation he was getting. In this episode, Flanders should have been happy for what Homer was doing. It was just forced character action to get the plot running.

Not that this is a glaring flaw that ruined the episode. However, until the writers are able to create a convincing logical conflict and do so consistently, new seasons will fall short of classic.

Compared to the Jean era episodes, it's among the better ones; not among the very best like the truly enthralling Half-Decent Proposal or Little Girl in the Big Ten or Moe Baby Blies, but about on-par with the very funny but less engaging (plotwise) episodes like Poppa's Got a Brand New Badge or I Am Furious Yellow. Grade: B+

[DotheBartman]

Don't think anyone noted this: When Homer is in Apu's house, is that a photo of the Kwik-E-Mart headquarters in India (from Homer and Apu) on the wall?

[Roger Myers III]

Originally posted by Jerry P.
quote:
Santa was in an awful pickle. Beatniks had given drugs to the reindeer, and they were no darn good, so Santa placed a call to Secretary of Defense Melvin Lear.

It's Secretary of Defense Melvin LAIRD. He was Nixon's Secretary of Defense, 1969-73, who was hawkish enough to continue waging war in Vietnam, but moderate -or bumbling- enough that Kissinger & Nixon didn't trust him with the secret bombings & incursions of the war into Cambodia & Laos.

The point of this cartoon parody is definitely a little obscure, so forgive me for 'splaining it out:

Rankin/Bass was the particular company whose stop-motion-animation Christmas story specials was being parodied - they made 7 from the late 60s and early 70s (their holiday specials after '76 were primarily 2-d animated). In art direction, and music, and message, the specials are considered very 'of their time' - very flower-power-y.

But the specials always featured, as the vocal performers and narrators, various then-elderly movie stars of the 40s and 50s, and many of these stars had, by that time, morphed from politically-liberal raconteurs out on the 'crazy Hollywood scene' into elderly, cantankerous, right-wing Vietnam War supporters (many had served, or at least entertained troops, in WWII, and may have simply seen a war effort as a war effort. [Among these types are Mickey Rooney, Roger Miller, Fred Astaire, Red Buttons, Robert Morse and Jimmy Durante. Jimmy Stewart was like this, but I don't believe he ever specifically did a Rankin/Bass.]

So the scene is a weird juxtaposition of one of these peace-love holiday specials with a cranky star reciting a right-wing fairy-tale, in which "beatniks" (what older folks who wouldn't care to differentiate would call 'Hippies') were responsible for threatening Christmas with their dirty drugs, and Santa calls in for assistance from Nixon's Secretary of Defense (presumedly for an air-strike or something) to save the holiday.

[prince jafar allah]

Mr. Scully is on point.

Originally posted by tim_duncan2000
I don't know how you could say that. What one person thinks is good social commentary or satire, another (you) might say that it was a weak attempt or whatever other negative thing you want to say.

whether or not the satire worked is another argument (and the logical argument for this argument to inevitably develop into). we're arguing whether there was an attempt at social commentary or not.

Originally posted by tim_duncan2000
And I contend that some of those "joke parades" do have more social commentary than you give them credit for

Elaborate.

[tim_duncan2000]

Okay, I will.

One episode you mentioned was King Size Homer. Sure, much of the humor was derived from sight gags and funny lines, but the social commentary aspect was there. There are examples of people taking advantage of the system all the time. I hear of stories on the news all the time about people injuring themselves or claiming to be injured. Homer just decided to do this another way by getting fat, which leads to more social commentary. Obesity is a huge problem in the US. And with more people becoming obese, you probably will see more of those stores like where Homer bought the muu-muu (or however it is spelled) and more problems like Homer had at the movie theater.

But I'm sure you will come up with some reasons why those don't count.

[prince jafar allah]

i recognise all of that. but there was still more social commentary in this week's episode. It was more subtle than "OMG LOL PEOPLE WHO USE COMPUTERS ARE FAT LOL" too.

[StrideR]

Originally posted by Mohammed Jafar
It was more subtle than "OMG LOL PEOPLE WHO USE COMPUTERS ARE FAT LOL" too.

Sure, when you put it that way...

[Tibor]

Originally posted by Roger Myers III
Rankin/Bass was the particular company whose stop-motion-animation Christmas story specials was being parodied - they made 7 from the late 60s and early 70s (their holiday specials after '76 were primarily 2-d animated).

Also, most of the other character in the cartoon listening to Jimmy are from Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer (remember specifically the dalmation elephant). I can't recall any of the other stop motion holiday shows, though.

[Roger Myers III]

Good eye, Tibor - although many R/B characters show up in more than one of these specials. Here are the other stop-motions:

Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer
Santa Claus is Comin' to Town
The Year Without a Santa Claus
The First Christmas: The Story Of The First Christmas Snow
Nestor the Long-Eared Christmas Donkey
Rudolph's Shiny New Year
The Little Drummer Boy

[tim_duncan2000]

It was more subtle than "OMG LOL PEOPLE WHO USE COMPUTERS ARE FAT LOL" too.

I could just as easily say "OMG LOL FLANDERS IS MAD AT HOMER!!! HOMER NOTICED HOW PPL DON'T REALIZE THE TRUE MEANING OF XMAS!!!!11!1! THAT IS SO TRUE!!!11!!1!!! LOL"

[chris]

So two re-watches later, and I finally remembered what Tuesdays with Morrie was. Sly little semi-meta-reference there...

[prince jafar allah]

Originally posted by tim_duncan2000
I could just as easily say "OMG LOL FLANDERS IS MAD AT HOMER!!! HOMER NOTICED HOW PPL DON'T REALIZE THE TRUE MEANING OF XMAS!!!!11!1! THAT IS SO TRUE!!!11!!1!!! LOL"

no you couldn't, because the social commentary in FABF02 was far more dense and complex than that, whereas the social commentary in King Size Homer wasn't, it was indeed just a series of cheap shots like "fat people use computers a lot", which perfectly fits in a goofy OMG LOL context.

[tim_duncan2000]

Fine, just ignore what all I said about King Size Homer and dismiss it as goofy LOL context. I still contend that it had good social commentary. I really don't see where you're getting that about how the social commentary is "far more dense and complex" in this episode. How so? Because Homer makes a few comments at the end about how we all celebrate Christmas differently? And because Homer took away people's gifts to say something about how Christmas it too commercialized and how there is too much materialism? How is that any more dense than what they did in "King Size Homer" (I'm not reposting that again; it's just a few posts above and, going by your latest posts, it doesn't even seem like you've addressed the specific things I've mentioned). I'm also always struck by how you can always talk about certain things like they are facts when they are actually just matters of opinion.

Also, your reviews often confuse me. For example, you talk about the plots and characterizations of some S5 episodes the way that I would talk about a S11 episode. You mention what it's bad because it's such a departure from what made the show great, but then you say that the episode wasn't that bad and that you actually liked it. You also have implied that it is hypocritical to complain about certain problems with the past few seasons and then still like a lot of the episodes from Season 5. I don't think it's hypocritical at all because, to me, it was funnier (spare me the crap about how bad the plots were and the characters and the satire and blah blah blah. I get it) than the crap from Season 11. That's why it is not hypocritical to me. And yes, I do realize that many people might say the same thing about Season 11, but they are in the minority, unlike those who like Season 5.

And even most of us simple folk who likes us sum good Season Five storeys think that dadgum Season 11 was purty bad.

[Friz]

Ho Ho Ho.

Downloaded it yesterday on a broadband computer, so I only got to watch it once (I'm not trusting the computer I'm on now for anything).

From a first veiwing, I enjoyed it. It was like a season 5 episode... with the odd horrendous, unneeded sex joke thrown in.

Not a lot of laugh out lod moments, but enjoyable nontheless. I may update this reveiw when it airs in UK, and I get to rewatch it again.

[DaSimpsons]

Originally posted by Friz
Ho Ho Ho.

Downloaded it yesterday on a broadband computer, so I only got to watch it once (I'm not trusting the computer I'm on now for anything).

Where did you find it? I use DC++ right now and cant find anything. Each of the last couple sunday nights, personal problems have come up. I need to catch up on my Simpsons! Help is appreciated.

[Tibor]

Originally posted by tim_duncan2000
Fine, just ignore what all I said about King Size Homer and dismiss it as goofy LOL context. I still contend that it had good social commentary.

Decent, but meh. People cheating disability happens, but there's not much room for analysis or anything. Bringing it up in itself doesn't score much because it's just not that relavent. It didn't have much to say satirically about obesity, other than it is unhealthy... Which everyone already knew. And anyway, it's not put in a socially relevant context. Homer doesn't become obese because of unhealthy fast food/junk food diet trends, he becomes obese because he wants to. If it aired today we'd have six pages of review complaining that the satire consisted of "OMG FAT PEOPLE USE COMPUTERS LOL.

Originally posted by tim_duncan2000
I really don't see where you're getting that about how the social commentary is "far more dense and complex" in this episode. How so? Because Homer makes a few comments at the end about how we all celebrate Christmas differently? And because Homer took away people's gifts to say something about how Christmas it too commercialized and how there is too much materialism? How is that any more dense than what they did in "King Size Homer"

For starters, there's the little things throughout, the casual riffing on commercialism. Then on to the theme of charity and greed... Did anyone else notice that Wiggum gave a large bundle of bills at church, a wealthy looking man next to him gave one bill, and Burns gave only one coin? There was also a recurring theme of social division throughout the episode, "our prices discriminate because we can't", the whole "rich people's mall," the 'bad side of town', the bums Homer gives clothes to, the soup kitchen people- tying into an observation on the nature of charity (are we charitable for others or for ourselves?). Notice how as Homer and Ned's contest escalates, the charity is less and less socially helpful and more self-indulgent- the skating rink, Ned getting everyone (and not even the poor, really) a gift... And it isn't just a row of detached punchlines, it's worked in to give the plot depth. None of it is direct, none of it shoehorned, but using the world that OFF inhabits as a social statement in and of itself. Unassuming, passive satire that gives weight to the humor and plot is a very classic era quality, and I'm talking really classic era, season 2-4 and 7. The most obvious it gets here is, is the commentary on making Christmas inclusive that Channel Surfer brought up (some of which was delivered completely through subtext- see Apu's house comments). By the way, that's first time I've seen that issue developed and satirized anywhere. But wait, there's more! The recurring cliched holiday media references juxtaposed with a layered ending that gives a cynical assessment under the cloak of a feel-good ending.

Very little of this is made obvious, most of it you have to infer from the thematic context or simply pay close attention to one scene. To make a broad summary, a multi-angled approach that explores how a religious holiday is increasingly secular and universal. The subject in itself isn't completely fresh, but the execution is deft and the implications are ambiguous rather than preachy. There's no trite message about 'the REAL meaning of Christmas,' it's just there for you to think about. I mean, King Size Homer's stuff had none of the ambiguity and doesn't invite any kind of afterthought like this does. For an idea of the improvement, consider Grift of the Magi where only the most obvious issue was satirized and had all the subtlety of Mike Scully thrusting his pelvis in your face.

Originally posted by tim_duncan2000
You also have implied that it is hypocritical to complain about certain problems with the past few seasons and then still like a lot of the episodes from Season 5. I don't think it's hypocritical at all because, to me, it was funnier (spare me the crap about how bad the plots were and the characters and the satire and blah blah blah. I get it) than the crap from Season 11. That's why it is not hypocritical to me.

No, what we're saying is that it's hypocritical to decry a new episode for poor characterization, lack of satire and poor plotting, then excuse or apologize for these problems in a season five episode.

[DaSimpsons]

King Size Homer is a sensational episode. I will have no bashing of it!

[Shlomo]

What did Homer say is a natural high? Hiking and...

[prince jafar allah]

also, the actual plotline of King Size Homer is so far away from any imaginable reality that it has only miniscule satirical punch. If Homer had managed to convince MB that he was disabled already at his existing weight, or something similar, then it would have had some relevance, but an insane idea about becoming ludicrously overweight merely so he could work at home has very little. after that, the only commentary that really exists is at the cinema, in which the only real commentary is "A Fridge Too Far" and "garbage bag full of popcorn", which are really only jokes about fat people, the only comment they make being that people make jokes about fat people. Other than that, if I recall correctly, the only other remotely satirical thing in the episode was Burns' "mere three mile island" comment. Whereas in FABF02, there was a ton of other riffs on society throughout. "Our Prices Discriminate Because We Can't", the "unnecessary" store, satire on kids' attitudes to "educational" toys, etc.

[Miguel Sanchez]

Originally posted by Shlomov2k3
What did Homer say is a natural high? Hiking and...

Paint thinner.

[tim_duncan2000]

Whereas in FABF02, there was a ton of other riffs on society throughout. "Our Prices Discriminate Because We Can't", the "unnecessary" store, satire on kids' attitudes to "educational" toys, etc.

But when there are signs like that and things like that shown in other episodes that you don't like as much, you would dismiss them as being part of a joke parade, and nothing more.

[prince jafar allah]

no i wouldn't. i acknowledged the one isolated gag in King Size Homer that was satirical, didn't I?

["Yes i Cannibus"]

Originally posted by DaSimpsons
Where did you find it? I use DC++ right now and cant find anything. Each of the last couple sunday nights, personal problems have come up. I need to catch up on my Simpsons! Help is appreciated.

Just use Bit Torrent, you will have it in like 15 mins, plus the link will be verified, so you're guarented no fakes

[pocketfox]

I gotta say this was one of the best ever, ranking #2 on my all time list (see signature). Can't think of anything to say that hasn't already been said about this one, but it was definitely great.
10/10

[Jolly Bengali]

Going head-to-head against both Tibor and Jafar is a lost cause. So I'll give up on trying to argue with you all, consider that a cowardly retreat if you will. All I know is that something about the show changed. Two theories on that, in a bit of self-psychology

What it may be is that the "shift" back to "classic-style" episodes has finally become apparent in my mind, but I didn't recognize it as such.

Or, like I said, I think it was recognizing that this was the best the show was going to get nowadays. No problems with characterization or plot, and a bunch of good jokes, but nothing close to my classic favorites like "Lemon Of Troy", "Last Exit To Springfield, or "Deep Space Homer", which is something I doubt you could argue (even if you disagree with my choices for what's indicative of the best in the series.) I think the episode solidified how the show is never going back to being at its best, which is something I guess I had always held out hope for.

[prince jafar allah]

how i managed to totally miss bengali's first reply to me is a complete mystery. i'll address it now, even though he's given up and tibor has already replied.

Originally posted by Jolly Bengali
The Front I'll concede, since I've seen it once and don't completely remember. But did it have a joke every two/three seconds?

if you can name a five-second period in it where it wasn't either telling a joke or building up to a joke, go ahead.

Originally posted by Jolly Bengali
Whacking Day had full-fledged social commentary,

other than some isolated jabs, it only had mob mentality satire. which this episode had, and put it in a much more meaningful context too.

Originally posted by Jolly Bengali
and also had periods without jokes.

uh, where?

Originally posted by Jolly Bengali
Homer Goes To College... I understand why you view this episode as being bad. But in an entirely subjective way, I find it much much funnier than this one. It has the same kind of comedic breakneck pace to it, but with a lot of the enthusiasm that I feel is missing from later episodes.

hmmmmm......"enthusiasm". that's a new one.

Originally posted by Jolly Bengali
Boy Scoutz - don't touch it. That has many a gag, but it's crafted, nuanced, has periods without jokes... and has enough plot and character interaction to more than make up for it in the book of advanced Simpsons love.

as Tibor said, Homer's characterisation here is lousy. Domineering, irritating, lacking any depth, constantly mean for no reason - a lot of Scully episodes had a better characterisation this, and the Homer of FABF02 was far better, with a lot more humanity, depth and a lot more comic value to him. The "character interaction" was mostly just Homer yelling at Bart or yelling at Flanders, and both of them becoming irritated at him, in the traditional style of a simplistic trapped-with-an-idiot sitcom plot. It has no periods without jokes. Virtually no social commentary. 80% of Mirkin episodes had jokes every few seconds, with no pauses whatsoever. It is hardly "crafted" either, it's just a wayward gag row. The plot has very little focus.

Originally posted by Jolly Bengali
$pringfield is chock 'full of satire in comparison, and is more subtle.

No it doesn't. Past the first act there is nothing at all. And even in the first act, even though there are some nice enough riffs on society like Brockman's newcast and "Once something has been approved by the government, it's longer immoral!", but a lot of it is kinda weak. In particular, the "for the children" thing that Tibor mentioned is probably one of the lamest and most uninspired satirical statements the show ever made in its "classic seasons".

Originally posted by Jolly Bengali
"Homer And Apu" has the same barely-in-check comedy to it, and it keeps itself from being zany like present seasons.

This has a poorly structured, stop-start plot and is as zany if not zanier than 50% of Jean era episodes. I mean really, how the hell was this not anything less than totally zany? The humor was consistently zany (Apu's sign of forgiveness, "are we in india yet", barney's cranberry tidal wave, etc) and the plot twists were far from being down-to-earth earlier. The whole trip to India and the appointment of James Woods as a Kwik-E-Mart clerk immediately makes this episode zanier than just about all of the episodes of last season. If that trip to India plot device (which was just a crazy tangent with very little purpose other than zaniness) were to occur in an episode today, it would get ripped to shreds.

Originally posted by Jolly Bengali
Or, like I said, I think it was recognizing that this was the best the show was going to get nowadays. No problems with characterization or plot, and a bunch of good jokes, but nothing close to my classic favorites like "Lemon Of Troy", "Last Exit To Springfield, or "Deep Space Homer", which is something I doubt you could argue (even if you disagree with my choices for what's indicative of the best in the series.) I think the episode solidified how the show is never going back to being at its best, which is something I guess I had always held out hope for.

well Deep Space Homer and Last Exit are just as much joke parades as this one, if not more, but....OK. Of course a 300+ episode show is not going to be as good as its heyday. I think it's unreasonable to expect that, and you're the only one that's suffering if you choose to let that fact spoil the new episodes for you.

[Jolly Bengali]

I'll probably adjust within a few episodes or so... but I'll bet you had some sort of "jump the shark" moment with the show or something. I began to watch new episodes Season 11... and I thought, OK, this is just a slump. The show's improved greatly, and I'm not faulting the show for not being as good, not at all... but I hadn't realized just that it had fallen so hard and wasn't going to get back up there.

Nice take-down though. Would have edged out Tibor except for misreading my Front comment.

[Tibor]

To edge out the best Simpsons episodes would be a helluva thing for any show to accomplish... But the trends of improvement are very encouraging. Thinking back to the first half of Season 14 and comparing it to the last half of the EABFs and first couple of FABFs it seems to be a world of difference. It would not shock me at all for the show to produce a season belonging to the classic era.... Think of 10-12 as Hell and 13 and 14 as purgatory.

[tim_duncan2000]

This has a poorly structured, stop-start plot and is as zany if not zanier than 50% of Jean era episodes. I mean really, how the hell was this not anything less than totally zany? The humor was consistently zany (Apu's sign of forgiveness, "are we in india yet", barney's cranberry tidal wave, etc) and the plot twists were far from being down-to-earth earlier. The whole trip to India and the appointment of James Woods as a Kwik-E-Mart clerk immediately makes this episode zanier than just about all of the episodes of last season. If that trip to India plot device (which was just a crazy tangent with very little purpose other than zaniness) were to occur in an episode today, it would get ripped to shreds.

Yeah, that trip to India thing was pretty out there, but I didn't mind them having James Woods as a Kwick-E-Mart clerk and I fail to see how his appearance was all that zany. All the stuff at the beginning with Homer getting sick, videotaping Apu, and Apu losing his job. Until that tidal wave thing, the stuff at Monstromart was pretty good (how was it that different that some of the stuff from this episode? That is how those stores like Sam's Club or Costco are.) I also remember you complaining about how it seemed like they just had them all sing "Who needs the Kwik-E-Mart" even though Apu didn't really feel that way. That seems like a very minor issue to me, and maybe he did feel the same way as them but then later realized how much he missed working there.

well Deep Space Homer and Last Exit are just as much joke parades as this one, if not more, but....OK.

No way "LETS" was just a joke parade. It was much more than that.