Ugueth Urbina's EXCELLENT Prison Adventure 2007-2021 (also, spring training) [Archive] - Page 3

Homer Jay

12-09-2006, 07:25 AM

This has been one crazy week. Teams have spent a lot of money. I have no clue what the hell the Royals are doing Gil Meche? I doubt that he will be a difference maker, and this is the kind of deal that could set the team back. I really like the Yankees signing Pettitte. What surprised me most about this offseason was how short Schmidt's deal is. One of the most interesting stories coming out of the winter meetings was the Reds Taking Josh Hamilton in the Rule 5 draft. He still has the tools, but he basically hasn't played a game in like five years. I think the Reds made a smart decision there, I don't see much risk from their perspective.

As for the Red Sox, I'm a little confused about the moves that they were making, especially the Lugo signing. I know that he is a player that they have liked for a couple of years, but I don't understand the appeal. He is a solid hitter, and can run, but he isn't a great hitter, and speed doesn't matter for the Sox. He is a "high-energy" player, but I'm not sure how much that is really worth. I would be more interested to see if the Sox could have traded for Marcus Giles to play second, and then used Cora and Pedroia at short, but I'm not sure if Pedroia has the range to play short. I think the Sox will sign Dice-K because all four parties involved have a lot to lose. Boras traditionally waits until the last possible moment to have his clients sign and I don't think that this will be any different.

The biggest winner this offseason might not even be a free agent. Carlos Zambrano is as young as Dice-K, and younger than any of the free agents on the market this year. He also has a proven track record that is better than anyone available. A year from now he could very well be signing the biggest contract ever for a starting pitcher.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-09-2006, 07:42 AM

This has been one crazy week. Teams have spent a lot of money. I have no clue what the hell the Royals are doing Gil Meche? I doubt that he will be a difference maker, and this is the kind of deal that could set the team back.EVERYONE has money this offseason, and the royals owner is now spending it more freely than ever. the royals got an above-league-average starter at the new market value, and have started building a rotation that is, if nothing else, formidable. what they need right now is to gather up some players who can meaningfully contribute and just turn the team away from 100 loss seasons, and at least represent an ATTEMPT at change. and surely a rotation of meche, odalis perez, brian bannister, luke hudson, and zack greinke (2 or 3 of those guys are probably getting league minimum) is one that, 1-5, is at least no longer the worst in baseball. that's alot of young, cheap talent, headed now by something resembling a competent veteran.
What surprised me most about this offseason was how short Schmidt's deal is.the contract goes until he's 36 years old. how is that surprising?
and speed doesn't matter for the Sox.yes it does. it matters for everyone, and the sox aren't above it. not everyone in the lineup can be a 40 homer guy, so why SHOULDN'T the ones who aren't be fast?

Homer Jay

12-09-2006, 08:22 AM

EVERYONE has money this offseason, and the royals owner is now spending it more freely than ever. the royals got an above-league-average starter at the new market value, and have started building a rotation that is, if nothing else, formidable. what they need right now is to gather up some players who can meaningfully contribute and just turn the team away from 100 loss seasons, and at least represent an ATTEMPT at change. and surely a rotation of meche, odalis perez, brian bannister, luke hudson, and zack greinke (2 or 3 of those guys are probably getting league minimum) is one that, 1-5, is at least no longer the worst in baseball. that's alot of young, cheap talent, headed now by something resembling a competent veteran.
First explain to me how Gil Meche is an above-average starter. The only times that he ERA was above league average was when he made 15 starts in each of his first two seasons, and that was five years ago. He generally does make his starts, but that isn't really enought to justify giving him 55 million. I have liked most of the moves that Moore has made, and the Royals do have some young talent, their rotation won't be horrible, next year, but I don't think that is a good reason to spend that kind of money. It looks more and more like the going rate for an average starting pitcher is 10 million a year. I am fully aware that I complained earlier in this thread about teams like the Royals not spending money, but I think that this is the wrong way to spend money. If Meche improves the team, how many games will it help them win? They will get better over time but that is because of their prospects (they might have the best top three of any team in Gordon, Butler and Hochevar).
the contract goes until he's 36 years old. how is that surprising?In this market, where Gil Meche gets 5 years, Ted Lilly gets four years and Zito might get seven, I think that Schmidt could have gotten a deal for longer. Yes he will start the season at 34 with some history of injuries, but the market is so crazy that he could have gotten more.
yes it does. it matters for everyone, and the sox aren't above it. not everyone in the lineup can be a 40 homer guy, so why SHOULDN'T the ones who aren't be fast?I agree that the Red Sox should have more speed, but I also watch them play, they don't place an emphasis on it all. The team likes having players who can get on base instead of those who take the extra base once they're on base. I don't agree with this thinking entirely. Teams do need to have players who can steal the base or take the extra base when needed. I thought that the team learned the lesson in 2004 with Dave Roberts, but it looks like I was mistaken. The team has below average runners at almost every position, and doesn't really seem to mind.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-09-2006, 09:05 AM

just because the red sox have failed to address the aspect of speed doesn't mean they're above using it or finding players who can. it's DUMB to not have a running game, so fixing that now is a good thing. who gives a shit what the mold of the team was the last few years? you said speed doesn't matter. YES, speed does matter. the red sox failure to address that fact doesn't somehow negate 120 years of common sense baseball.

and you think gil meche, a 28 year old 1st round pick who will throw up a mid-4ERA and a give you a chance to win everyday isn't an improvement over mark redman, or scott elarton, or whoever the fuck else the royals marched out last year? with the royals, you can't just argue stats against league average, anyway. the improvement in having meche over the other guys, and him having the mere POTENTIAL for being even better (he's moving into his prime) is far greater than some shit-on like redman.

gil meche's 5 year contract takes him to age 33, lilly's to 34, zito's potentially until 34 or 35. how schmidt getting a contract to age 36 comes as surprising, i have no idea. there's more to contracts than length. hard throwing guys in their mid-30s aren't the greatest health commodity.

Mayor Quimby

12-09-2006, 10:14 AM

Eric Gange has two suitors. The first is the Indians, and secondly the Rangers. This might sound dumb, especially given earlier bitching about signing unhealthy pitchers, but bringing Gange in would be a smart move for Cleveland. Gange would get the ball, with Borowski setting him up. If he fails, then Borowski will be able to go. It's almost like an insurance policy. I guess at this point considering what was available, I can accept a Gange signing. Personally much rather go get a Mike Gonzalez or a Saloman Torres, both had success closing for the Pirates last year, both would be relatively less risky but I'm not Shapiro.

thecapecoddah

12-09-2006, 11:02 AM

I thought that the team learned the lesson in 2004 with Dave Roberts, but it looks like I was mistaken. The team has below average runners at almost every position, and doesn't really seem to mind.

hmm? both crisp and lugo can potentially steal 30 bases if they stay healthy. also youkilis was an upgrade over kevin "mr. concrete feet" millar, and drew's a bit quicker than nixon (though you won't see J.D. stealing bases). they're not a speedy team by any means, but they're quicker.

oh and if clemens comes back to the yankees because his boy andy's there I'm gonna barf.

Homer Jay

12-09-2006, 12:06 PM

hmm? both crisp and lugo can potentially steal 30 bases if they stay healthy. also youkilis was an upgrade over kevin "mr. concrete feet" millar, and drew's a bit quicker than nixon (though you won't see J.D. stealing bases). they're not a speedy team by any means, but they're quicker..
They can, but I don't think they will. I like having speed, but neither of those guys will run that much, the Sox are affraid of running into outs, which is especially problematic when Ortiz and Manny are hitting three and four. Tito isn't a big fan of stolen bases (I think the team was last in the league all three of his years). I'm not sure if Theo is building the team with running in mind. I think be signed Drew primarily because of his hitting skills, but he does have some speed.

I don't think a team needs that much speed, but they do need someone who can run on the bench, and I don't think either Cora is that guy and I doubt the backup outfielder (Murphy?) will be either. Speaking of backups, they need a good backup catcher. Varitek is getting older, and I don't think that Mirabelli should come back. He lost a lot of bat speed last year, and he's too poor a hitter to justify a roster spot

Mayor Quimby

12-09-2006, 05:47 PM

I don't think a team needs that much speed, but they do need someone who can run on the bench, and I don't think either Cora is that guy and I doubt the backup outfielder (Murphy?) will be either. Speaking of backups, they need a good backup catcher. Varitek is getting older, and I don't think that Mirabelli should come back. He lost a lot of bat speed last year, and he's too poor a hitter to justify a roster spot

If you hadn't qualified that they need someone on the bench, you would have been murdered. This is the same team, that needed Dave Roberts speed to get to the World Series.

Homer Jay

12-09-2006, 06:02 PM

Did you look at my post a few ones up where I wrote something like I thought they learned their lesson after Roberts in 04?

Speed is important, but it clearly one of the less important skills. It does help in run prevention and run creation, but there are other skills that are of greater importance to either.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-09-2006, 06:06 PM

Speed is important, but it clearly one of the less important skills.wrong wrong wrong.

wrong.

Homer Jay

12-09-2006, 06:10 PM

So I'll tell you what, you can have the nine best baserunners at their position and I'll take the nine best hitters. Who do you think will win?

Dewey Finn

12-09-2006, 06:10 PM

oh and if clemens comes back to the yankees because his boy andy's there I'm gonna barf.
Will Andy's friend follow? Well, we wouldn't have any good spot for rocket unless Ca$h trades Pavano (and put Igawa to bullpen). There are a lot of possibilities in these situations, but I think Roger will retire this time.
http://www.nomaas.org/images/breakup.jpg

In other news, Cubs get a pinch hitter for 3/21 deal.
The Cubs are seemingly the only team that's displayed any real interest in him since the conclusion of the season, though that probably would have changed now that the better pitchers are disappearing from the market. If Marquis joins the Cubs, he'd likely be the fourth starter behind Carlos Zambrano, Ted Lilly and Rich Hill. Mark Prior and Wade Miller would be the leading candidates for the final spot in the rotation. Dec. 8 - 11:56 am et

Dead Nigga Storage

12-09-2006, 06:39 PM

So I'll tell you what, you can have the nine best baserunners at their position and I'll take the nine best hitters. Who do you think will win?please tell me this reply was supposed to be a joke...please.

Homer Jay

12-09-2006, 06:57 PM

It's a half joke. I think that the ability to run is less important than other skills. I would rather have a guy who can only get on base a lot, or hits for a lot of power than a guy who can simply run. I remember the ultimate speed only guy, his name was Darren Lewis, he was one of the fastest players on the Red Sox in 1999, but his OPS was like 600. Of coarse I would rather have players who have multiple skills, but there is really no reason for a player who can't hit at all to be a starter in the majors. There is a place for speed, but it is limited, stolen bases are of some importance, but it is less than it was twenty years ago when stadiums were bigger, had astroturf and the overall offensive explosion wasn't there. The more important aspects are the ability to take the extra base and how speed effects defensive performance

Dead Nigga Storage

12-09-2006, 07:21 PM

Rekart

12-09-2006, 10:24 PM

You ruined my dreams of Yadi playing OF, DNS. Fuck you.

Homer Jay

12-10-2006, 07:34 AM

you're carrying things to the far extreme, though, and that's insane. no one is saying the red sox should carry a bunch of short-distance sprinters on their roster. all that was said is that speed is an essential skill to the game...and speed is not a basepath-only skill. speed guys are better position players in the outfield, typically too. ichiro suzuki is a speed guy, so is carlos beltran, so WAS vladimir guerrero, alex rodriguez has 30 steal capabilities, etc., etc. the only point being made is that the red sox have molded themselves very one-dimensionally, and that's to basically just mash. they can't manufacture runs well when they need to, because they need to rely on someone hitting the long ball for them...and even then, they only REALLY have two prolific power hitters (j.d. drew not included, as he is new to the team).

and to be realistic, when it comes down to it, you can't have 9 of the best hitters, but you probably could very, very easily have the 9 best runners, all due to budgetary constraints. speed guys are generally cheaper than power guys. that's why teams need to strike a balance. you need to have the ability to get guys on, and in scoring positions, but you also need power. 9 roger cedenos wouldn't do much, but neither would a bunch of .240 hitting fantasy wonders like adam dunn. and i won't even go into health matters...just put it this way: the rickey hendersons of the world last longer than the mo vaughns.

is it better to have 9 power hitters? probably, yeah. but it's also unrealistic and a completely moot point. my qualm is that you somehow think that speed is completely "unimportant" (your words), when any one else in the world can tell you the opposite. coming from a guy whose team has a TON of it, you really, really do get to respect what it does for a team on both sides of the ball. going 1st to 3rd on a base hit and scoring on a sac fly because of it, or chasing down a ball and cutting it off as it heads for the gap to prevent the double...it's fundamental baseball, and couldn't be more essential to the game.I believe I used words like "less important" not "unimportant.” I did refer to speed as not important to the Red Sox, which is true based on the way that they have historically played, the team basically plays station to station baseball. The ability to steal bases or take the extra base is not used because the team doesn’t want to take the bat out of the hands of Manny or Ortiz (who would?). The Red Sox primarily look at players according their offensive performance, then they look at their defense, and then baserunning. That’s why they didn’t try to resign Gonzalez, and why they went after Drew or Lugo.

This fascination with speed that people have is really funny. Speed is not the same thing as baserunning ability or defense. The terms are not interchangeable. Many people regard Derek Jeter as the best baserunners in the league, but I doubt anyone would call him the fastest. There is more to baserunning than speed, and there is more to playing the outfield well than having good speed. Instincts, judgment and knowledge of opponents help make players better baserunners. Taking the extra base, scoring on a sac fly, even stealing bases, are all effected by more things than speed, and teams should not ignore players who can do these things well. But they should not necessarily do them at the expense of players who can do more things. Other factors affect defense as well, certain players take very poor routes to balls, and are poorer fielders than counterparts who might be slower but run better routes. Teams value these abilities more than speed. I loved it at the beginning of the season when the Red Sox were playing great defense. The team was based upon "Pitching, defense, and the three-run homer." But when the pitching became either injured or ineffective, and the team stopped hitting, the season went downhill.

There are situations when manufacturing runs is important, but these are specific situations. If it's late in a game and the team really needs a run to catch up or as insurance, then run manufacturing is helpful, but that should really be the primary way a team tries to score runs. There are times when a team needs a stolen base, and should send in a pinch runner, but those situations do not come up as often as ones when a team needs someone to get a hit. Teams should not run into outs in games, when they have a hitter like Ortiz, Thome or Guerrero coming up. When I was referring to speed not being important to the Red Sox I was referring to how it directly correlates to basestealing (I should have made that point clearer). I should have written something like, base stealing isn't important to the Red Sox, but I didn't and that's my mistake.

Ichiro is probably the most extreme example of a player who skill set is based on speed, because although he generally has a strong OBP, he doesn’t walk that much and beats out a number of infield singles. But even he doesn’t rely solely on speed, his ability to get on base is more effected by his bat ball abilities than his speed. It’s abilities like that which separate him from Willy Taveras. Speed is important to his game, and he wouldn’t be great if he lacked it, but it isn’t what makes him great. What separated Tim Raines and Ricky Henderson from Willie Wilson and Vince Coleman? They were all incredibly fast players and among the best basestealers of their eras. Henderson and Raines were better lead off hitter because they got on base significantly more often than Wilson and Coleman.

gravymaster

12-10-2006, 07:58 AM

oh and if clemens comes back to the yankees because his boy andy's there I'm gonna barf.
Same here. I love Andy, but I don't want Clemens back here.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-10-2006, 08:02 AM

so, basically, you cite speed as being unimportant to the red sox because they historically don't use it? i would think you'd be better off avoiding the topic of teams that have been historically...deficient in winning when trying to make your argument that speed is inessential, ESPECIALLY when their first world series win in 86 years was due to a pair of legs.

and the argument that you're "taking the bat out of manny or ortiz's hands" is b.s. taking 3rd base on a single is all about execution. the colorado rockies, in 2005, were successful ONE-HUNDRED-PERCENT of the time doing it, the angels were successful 99/102 times. it's all about strategically running, and knowing when to do it. god only knows how many extra runs that led to for the team. if you think that's not essential, then it's just biased. again, your argument is so ridiculously sox-slanted, that it's laughable.

and yes, basestealing is still an essential tool, even if the sox don't know how to use it. the sox don't even muster up the OCCASSIONAL stolen base. they're usually dead last, or close to it. sure, you can sit here and argue that they're "running into outs", but if you know what you're doing as a coach, and as a runner, then you don't run into a lot of them. you can argue that the sox score enough runs as is, but then you're completely ignoring how many countless more runs you COULD HAVE scored. no one is asking every runner that reaches first to attempt a steal of second, but the sox don't have anyone that'll do it, period. and since runners are safe on stolen bases more often than not, just by pure percentages, it's going to be better to have guys who can steal: for every ONE guy who gets out trying to steal second in front of an ortiz home run, you're going to have 2 or 3 guys who score on ortiz's single because they made it to second. your thought style is way, way too influenced by the fact that it's the style used by your club. i'm not sitting here advocating that you put 9 chone figgins on your team, but i'm saying that being dead last in stolen bases isn't exactly the virtue you seem to want to make it out to be.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-10-2006, 10:26 AM

SHIT'S GONNA FLY, BITCHES:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6257138

boras' asking price is ridiculous, but boston is doing some SERIOUS low-balling if they are only asking $7-8 million a year.

Mike

12-10-2006, 11:19 AM

anyone read that article... i think from the ny times so it's going to give some boston hate, but it says that a lot of unnamed people around baseball think the red sox tampered with jd drew, and teams are encouraging the dodgers to file a complaint.

can't find the link, sorry. i'm not sure how much truth there might be to this, but i do know the sox are much more "evil" this year than the yankees are.

oh, and jay payton signed with baltimore. 2 years, 9.5 million. i would have liked to keep him in oakland, but he wasn't going to be happy unless he played everyday, and with an outfield of kotsay, bradley, swisher, and a great left handers-only bobby kielty, that definitly wasn't going to happen.

looking back on 2 years ago, everyone was disappointed about the trade of chad bradford, but payton's given the a's a lot more than bradford would have in 2 seasons.

thecapecoddah

12-10-2006, 11:26 AM

SHIT'S GONNA FLY, BITCHES:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6257138

boras' asking price is ridiculous, but boston is doing some SERIOUS low-balling if they are only asking $7-8 million a year.

well the sox are intent on getting him... they did sign that other japanese pitcher to help make matsuzaka's transition easier (and of course to hopefully provide some good bullpen relief). I'll still be a little stunned if the sox don't sign him, but somewhat amused as well since a failure to sign would destroy boras's reputation in the quickly growing japanese market.

I have no love for the agent who's making my team spend $70 millon on jd drew and assisted in taking damon away from us.

a lot of unnamed people around baseball think the red sox tampered with jd drew, and teams are encouraging the dodgers to file a complaint.

that's true; I heard that a couple days ago.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-10-2006, 11:45 AM

i heard about the complaint against the red sox on drew, too. combine that with the RIDICULOUS low-balling on matsuzaka, and the sox front office looks like a bunch of assfucks right now. boras isn't the only one botching this matsuzaka acquisition. if meche and lilly are earning as much as they are, matsuzaka should too...and the sox have themselves to blame with their ridiculously high bidding price for setting the precedent for matsuzaka's contract level so high.

Dewey Finn

12-10-2006, 01:08 PM

assisted in taking damon away from us.
It might've sounded like overpaying that time (13 million per year for a leadoff), but I think Red Sox were too confident about Damon coming back to them in lower cost. But NOOOO... remember when he wanted 7/84 deal for Damon?...And I agree with what DNS says about how Sox FO has become an ass.

Timothy

12-10-2006, 03:52 PM

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2692164

Pettite is sayig the Astros were going to move on without him

Pettitte and Hendricks said they offered to play for the Astros for $14 million, but that the Astros would offer no more than $12 million and balked at the second-year option.

Pettitte said Saturday he was surprised the Astros wouldn't bridge the gap between the two proposals.

"It shocked me that [the Astros] would not continue to go up, when the Yankees continued to push and push and pursue and they [the Astros] really didn't do much," he said. "It was a full-court press by the Yankees. I've talked to the guys, and obviously they wanted me to come back up there."

How the hell do you bridge the gap between the 2 proposals? Offer a one-and-a-half-year deal? No, you do it with a mutual option, which obviously wasn't acceptable to him. I didn't mind him leaving the Astros to get a 2nd year on the deal, but if that's the crap he wants to shovel, then fuck Pettite.

eta: I don't understand this Jason Marquis deal. 3 years for a career .500 pitcher, well barely above .500 but you get it and a 6 ERA? The Cubs should've taken that Lilly and Marquis money and just signed Zito.

robb

12-10-2006, 07:25 PM

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2693447

mesa signs with the tigers.

meh.

Mayor Quimby

12-10-2006, 07:48 PM

Fuck, he should just do the world a favor and die.

Jeff

12-10-2006, 07:56 PM

hmm ...i wonder if the gnats play the tigs in interleague next season?

boras asking price is clearly too high, considering the added $51.1 mil for the negotating rights... something like $12mil/yr should be able to get matsuzaka in a red sox uniform next season

Dead Nigga Storage

12-10-2006, 09:47 PM

except that the negotiating price should have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on what kind of contract he inevitably signs. if anything, the red sox should have been ready to hand out a BIGGER contract if they were going to bid so high, because they placed his value at such an extreme level.

robb

12-11-2006, 01:55 PM

http://www.vzwpix.com/mi/116634571_375902098_0.jpeg?limitsize=320,320&outquality=56&ext=.jpg&border=2,0,0,0

my seats at the alcs. best i could find/afford, and i just now uploaded the picture from my phone since i forgot my damn camera.

Dewey Finn

12-11-2006, 04:33 PM

I know Matsuzaka will go back to Japan when I see it. At least Red Sox will get their money back to pay their homey: Manny.

Will Igawa sign before Dec. 20th? (Deadline for him is 28th, guys)
According to Sanspo, Arn Tellem told Igawa that an agreement may be reached as early as Dec. 20th.
Sanspo reports that Igawa was never concerned about salary or the length of the contract. All he wanted was to bring his own trainer, Soeda, and an interpreter.

He's at least healthier than Glass-bodied Pavano. Recent reports say that Cards are interested in him.

Yankees also sign 23 yrs old Cuban 1B/OF prospect (defected) Juan Miranda
Cuban defector Juan Miranda said he has signed a four-year, $2 million contract with the Yankees.
Miranda defected to the Dominican Republic in 2004 and gained citizenship last year. The left-handed hitter claims he's 23, but is probably older. He's capable of playing first base and some outfield. Miranda said he picked the Yankees over the Dodgers. "Miranda is projected to hit over 20 home runs and hit .280," a Yankees official told ESPNdeportes.com. "He doesn't swing at bad pitches." Time will tell about that. He seems like a long shot to contribute next season.

per rotoworld

He actually has a good record in Cuba, and besides having a potentially good batter for half a million per year (in 4 seasons) is a great deal considering it'd be very curious how he'll do in majors. He actually claims he's 23 yrs old, but I believe he could be older than that

Mike

12-11-2006, 04:49 PM

yeah, as soon as i saw it i figured he might be as old as 27-28.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-11-2006, 06:10 PM

.280 with 20 homers? is he high?

Timothy

12-12-2006, 08:20 AM

I can think of at least 5 Cuban prospects better than Miranda:

Yunel Escobar(was a top braves prospect)
Gary Galvez
Kendry Morales
Arian Cruz
Brayan Pena

Miranda should've signed with a small-market team. With the Yankees, he's just going to get stuck in double or triple A.

robb

12-12-2006, 12:23 PM

gagne signs with the rangers, 1 year 6 millionish.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2695054

batista signs with mariners for 3 years, 24 mill:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2694884

Dewey Finn

12-12-2006, 01:32 PM

batista signs with mariners for 3 years, 24 mill:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2694884
:-O
No matter what good away stat he has, he'll never do his worth in AL. Especially regarding his age.

On Miranda, if he can reach majors within June next year, he'll be starting 1B (Giambi as DH) unless Yankees get someone else (Wilkerson, Hillenbrand etc) in the FA right now. Some sources say that he's 25, but I'm not sure on here....:confused:

Red Sox's final offer to Matsuzaka-> 6/60. I'd like to see DNS ripping off this offer.

According to George King article, Yankees and Red Sox are interested in Mike Gonzalez of Bucs. I doubt they'll trade him unless Yanks offer someone like Hughes+Tabata (or Buchholz+Ellsbury for Sox)

Timothy

12-12-2006, 01:34 PM

I guess the $8 million asking was a little too high for the Sox. I would've signed Gagne if I were the Sox, though.

except that the negotiating price should have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on what kind of contract he inevitably signs. if anything, the red sox should have been ready to hand out a BIGGER contract if they were going to bid so high, because they placed his value at such an extreme level.

Another problem is the posting fee. Boras is exposing the flaws in the current posting system, not that it would be easy to work around that. It sounds like there's some blame for both sides here since the Red Sox were clearly lowballing Matsuzaka if they started at $7M per year as rumored, but $15M per year just because Matsui wound up being a little underpaid? That's stretching it.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-12-2006, 02:52 PM

the $15 million price tag is more a reflection of what meche, lilly, etc. are getting paid. i'm not sold on matsuzaka as a decent pitcher as of yet (at least for the majors), but if those previously mentioned guys can get $10 million a year, then surely that shouldn't be the sox FINAL offer to matsuzaka.

i heard a rumor that, if it's determined that the sox didn't negotiate in good faith, selig or the seibu lions reserve the right to pass on negotiations to the second highest bidder (the mets). i'll say more later when i know for sure.

thecapecoddah

12-12-2006, 04:33 PM

I'd rather see the sox walk away then give matsuzuka more than $13 million a year. stick it to scott boras for once.

it's ridiculous that they were forced to counter-offer against themselves due to boras' stubborn way of doing business.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-12-2006, 05:04 PM

did you READ how little they were offering, eric? any agent in baseball would have laughed that figure out of a meeting. sox wanted $7-8 million a year, and their FINAL offer was $10 million a year, the same as meche and lilly and guys like that. boras may be stubborn, but the reason they had to counter offer is because they threw a shit contract offer out for matsuzaka in the first place. this is a fuck up on both ends. 8 million is too low, 15 too high. you won't be "sticking it to boras" if this contract negotiation fails. it'll be sticking it to japanese baseball, and damaging relations between the two leagues for some time.

thecapecoddah

12-12-2006, 06:09 PM

where was this "final offer" figure reported? I was listening to boston sportsradio for a couple hours earlier and didn't hear a thing about this.... sources plz.

Dewey Finn

12-12-2006, 06:12 PM

where was this "final offer" figure reported? I was listening to boston sportsradio for a couple hours earlier and didn't hear a thing about this.... sources plz.
http://www.zakzak.co.jp/spo/2006_12/s2006121207.html

It's Japanese, but some people did translated it to Korean on this site:
http://www.mlbbada.com/zeroboard/zboard.php?id=mlbboard&page=1&sn1=&divpage=6&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=31662

thecapecoddah

12-12-2006, 06:14 PM

only site on the web reporting that... I don't buy it.

EDIT: actually I vaguely recall someone mentioning this to the WEEI boston hosts a little earlier and being laughed at.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-12-2006, 06:29 PM

ok, someone is reporting it, and that's more than anyone else has at the moment, but let's just assume that that isn't the final figure. the mere fact that they STARTED at 7-8 million is a fucking joke and disgraceful in itself. this isn't "boras ruining everything", it's both sides being unreasonable.

thecapecoddah

12-12-2006, 06:41 PM

yup, they may have thought they were buddy-buddy with boras after the ridiculous jd drew signing and could get away with a lower offer. that certainly isn't the case.

the fact that they're counter-offering against themselves is still embarassing as a fan, though.

and ARR MATEYS, sox plundering from pirates - http://www.timesonline.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=17582460&BRD=2305&PAG=461&dept_id=478568&rfi=6 (boston planning to sign 38 year old japanese pitcher Masumi Kuwata)

Mike

12-12-2006, 10:40 PM

... why?

Voodoo Monkey

12-13-2006, 08:44 AM

Vernon wells reportedly offered 7-year, $126 million extension to stay in Toronto.

http://www.battersbox.ca/article.php?story=20061213081217900

Dead Nigga Storage

12-13-2006, 08:46 AM

i heard about that and cried. why the angels didn't go after him instead of matthews is beyond me. stoneman needs to grow some balls and learn to trade some of the farm system talent we have, or else we might as well not have a surplus of it.

vinceq

12-13-2006, 08:49 AM

Vernon wells reportedly offered 7-year, $126 million extension to stay in Toronto.

http://www.battersbox.ca/article.php?story=20061213081217900

woo hoo. I hope he takes the offer. If he does, he just wants the money, if he doesn't take the offer, then he's just another athlete who hates playing in Toronto.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-13-2006, 09:48 AM

he would make AT LEAST that much on the open market, so if he takes the contract it isn't all about the money.

thecapecoddah

12-13-2006, 10:01 AM

Boston Globe and Boston Herald reporting that a deal with Daisuke Matsuzaka is done or imminent (6 year contract according to WEEI Boston). D-Mat and Boras are both flying to Boston at this time.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/wires/12/13/2010.ap.bba.red.sox.matsuzaka.2nd.ld.0183/

Timothy

12-13-2006, 10:45 AM

i heard a rumor that, if it's determined that the sox didn't negotiate in good faith, selig or the seibu lions reserve the right to pass on negotiations to the second highest bidder (the mets). i'll say more later when i know for sure.

I don't think that will actually happen. He is still under contract to Seibu.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2696321

If there is no deal, Matsuzaka's rights remain with the Lions and he cannot be offered to major league teams again until next November. He is not eligible to become a free agent in Japan until after the 2008 season.

Current offer from the Sox is at $8 million, with an $11 million counter from Boras' camp. I'm guessing that they will agree here or at 12.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-13-2006, 10:49 AM

the scenario you discussed though, is only if there is no deal made...not if there is no deal made, AND selig finds that there were not good-faith negotiations. if that were the case, it would be as if the sox had never made a bid in the first place. otherwise, there would be nothing to stop a team from just bidding a billion dollars every time to block another team from getting him.

with or without daisuke (who i think people are overrating significantly), i've got to think that the sox finish third this year again, as is.

Mayor Quimby

12-13-2006, 11:02 AM

DNS what significant improvements have the Blue Jays made? They needed to get help for the backend of their rotation, unless they plan to outslug teams.

thecapecoddah

12-13-2006, 11:05 AM

a lot would have to go wrong (like last year) for the red sox to finish 3rd and only have around 85 wins.... I don't see the jays topping 88 victories unless both halladay and another starter like burnett have all-star years.

Timothy

12-13-2006, 11:06 AM

The Red Sox need some bullpen help. If they manage to secure quality support guys, they could easily be a wild-card contender. Especially a good closer......I think a deal for Chad Cordero would be a very good one for the Sox. I don't know what it will take to get it done. I don't know what it will take to get it done, but I would trade Wily Mo Pena if that's what it took. I like Pena's potential, especially at Fenway, but the Sox already have three starting OFers (assuming they keep Manny), Pena is not going to develop and overcome his deficiencies without regular experience, and the Sox desperately need someone to anchor that bullpen - Cordero is young and he's an All Star quality closer. So I'd make that deal, but Pena alone might not be enough. I'd also consider trading Crisp for Cordero, but I think Crisp will have a nice bounce back year next year and I think he'll fit in nicely in Boston over the long run.

ETA: Is Kapler really going to coach a single A ballclub?

Timothy

12-13-2006, 11:49 AM

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/12/13/matsuzaka.signs/index.html

6 years, $52 million, but with an escalator clause that could take it to $60 million.

What a bargain.

Dewey Finn

12-13-2006, 11:58 AM

Doug Mirabelli will remain with the Red Sox on a one-year contract, the Boston Herald reports.
Good move for Sox since Wakefield is useless without Mirabelli...Wait, what does this guy bat? .191?

And yes, although Kaplers has played only a decade in MLB, he's really going to be a manager of some club.

I don't know the exact reason why Boras accepted 6/52 deal (less than 6/60, but more than 8 million per year), but some reports from Japan says that Matsuzaka was nervous as hell when the negociation was not doing really good.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-13-2006, 12:12 PM

DNS what significant improvements have the Blue Jays made? They needed to get help for the backend of their rotation, unless they plan to outslug teams.if frank thomas plays HALF as well as he did last year, the blue jays are looking at another 2-3 wins, at least. burnett missed a third of a season last year. if he makes all of his starts, that's another 3-4 wins. if chacin isn't injured again, and looks more like he did in '05, that's more for them. josh towers was a COMPLETE disaster last year...if we assume that he is either back and better again, or replaced by someone else, that spot can ONLY get better. it couldn't possibly be 2-10, 8.42 again, no matter who is pitching there. i can also see casey janssen looking much better with a year behind him now, too. teams being evaluated in terms of what they acquire in an offseason to improve is too shortsighted. what went wrong last year to drastic degrees being corrected the following year is just as significant. 2007 will bring new problems to the blue jays, but it'd be hard to match some of the huge problems of last year, like burnett and chacin's injuries, and towers' complete failure. they could easily bounce back to finish with 90 wins or more.

the red sox, on the other hand, have just basically accumulated question marks this offseason. j.d. drew is an injury waiting to happen, manny ramirez and curt schilling are a year older. david ortiz is a ticking time bomb leading towards the first of a series of chronic injuries that befall all people of his build. the red sox have no closer right now, and papelbon's arm fell off at the end of last year as a closer, so there is absolutely NO certainty regarding what he does in the rotation this year. matsuzaka is a question mark. josh beckett still can't be a guarantee for next year after his piss-poor 2006. wakefield is a crapshoot every start. the sox are basically a team with very, very good upside, but a SHITLOAD of question marks with devestating negative potential. i just don't like any team with the potential for massive failure. i think the jay's realistic worse case scenario has around 85 wins. i can see the red sox finishing .500. so sue me.

edit: the matsuzaka signing is ridiculous. i can't believe people think it was acceptable to count the posting fee against the size of the contract. he's worth more than lilly and meche. i can't see why this happened, other than matsuzaka pushing for it to get the contract signed. nonetheless, $103 million for 6 years is insane.

thecapecoddah

12-13-2006, 12:26 PM

he's worth more than lilly and meche.

we don't know that yet. like you said, he's a question mark.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-13-2006, 12:29 PM

he's a question mark to be the ace that he was in japan, not to be a 4.50ERA with a .500 winning percentage. clearly the sox don't think he's a question mark if they paid 51.1 million. front office tried to spin that posting price as counting towards his contract...ie, we paid that to talk to him, now we pay less to have him. bullshit, it's the other way around.

thecapecoddah

12-13-2006, 12:32 PM

don't worry, j.d. drew can afford to pick up the bar tab on some nights for poor matsuzaka

Dead Nigga Storage

12-13-2006, 12:33 PM

yeah, you don't have to worry about being sober for the games if you're on the DL.

Timothy

12-13-2006, 12:34 PM

Agreed on the Blue Jays. They will make the East pretty interesting in 2007.

As for the Sox, if Lester is able to recover from his cancer treatment by spring training, and sounds like he'll be ready to go, I think he could be the answer much like Papelbon was last year. I think Lester showed good promise last season before he was sidelined, and depending on the Matsuzaka situation, there won't be room in the rotation for him anyway (until Schilling suffers his typical injuries).

edit: Sorry, but I'm about to show my Met-fan side...

I wonder what effect Matsuzaka's signing will have on Barry Zito's asking price. Drive it up, most likely, but Zito supposedly has some reservations about pitching in Texas. Dunno how that mess is going to work itself out.

thecapecoddah

12-13-2006, 12:42 PM

Dewey Finn

12-13-2006, 12:43 PM

Just thinking, don't you think Lester is overrated on some point? He has Chacon-esque 1.65 WHIP, a lot of people think that he's a power pitcher, but in fact he throws 91~92mph for most. How did he managed to survive with 4.76 ERA with 1.65 WHIP? (Sox defense with Alex Gonzalez with Loretta... I guess) Casey Fossum had better WHIP and less number of hits in his debut season guys.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-13-2006, 12:46 PM

I can't wait for lester's first start/appearance in boston... the applause-meter will be off the charts.. I hope to be there for that one.

oh and for no reason at all here's a picture of gary matthews jr. eating some boston grass

http://graphics.boston.com/images/bostondirtdogs//Headline_Archives/BDD_7.20_GMJ_tex_bgjd.jpgit's amazing how little that bothers me, considering we had a better record than you in '06, how we currently have the best pitching staff in baseball, the best bullpen, and still a smaller payroll. sox lose all over the place.

thecapecoddah

12-13-2006, 12:49 PM

Just thinking, don't you think Lester is overrated on some point? He has Chacon-esque 1.65 WHIP, a lot of people think that he's a power pitcher, but in fact he throws 91~92mph for most. How did he managed to survive with 4.76 ERA with 1.65 WHIP?

maybe a bit, yeah. last year he seemed to have a knack for getting himself out of lots of trouble-situations with players in scoring position. and he had a bunch of rough starts in august, when he was likely pitching injured/sick. and if he's going to be a 4th or 5th starter, he's a pretty good one IMO.

Dewey Finn

12-13-2006, 12:50 PM

it's amazing how little that bothers me, considering we had a better record than you in '06, how we currently have the best pitching staff in baseball, the best bullpen, and still a smaller payroll. sox lose all over the place.
In my opinion, 2006 Angels had a fluky bad year (but still grew more prospects) but is ready to win AL West this year I think.

More funny thing is that Red Sox had 16-1 record in Interleague; still finished in 3rd place of AL East

Timothy

12-13-2006, 12:55 PM

Speaking of the Mets, they non-tendered Zambrano. They got a steal in Scott Kazmir. GREAT move by the mets. F Zambrano, what a waste of money.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-13-2006, 01:01 PM

angels season was't really a fluke, so much as the product of terrible injuries. NO one in baseball had a better record after the all-star break. they suffered injuries at the beginning of the year, and while trying to set the records to offset those injuries, they suffered. after they set their feet, they took off. they'll continue it in '07.

oh look, it's mr. affleck. keep your eye on the ball ben, keep your eye on the ball!

http://x2a.xanga.com/b51a4a070833269512264/w46708826.jpg

Oh, so close Ben! Maybe next time!

Mayor Quimby

12-13-2006, 01:13 PM

DNS,while the Angels staff is good, its hardly not without question and that mainly is Colon expected back at 100%? Also I expect some drop off from Jered Weaver, and Santana can't match his win total from last year if he doesn't lower his ERA.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-13-2006, 01:44 PM

i never said it didn't have questions, but rather that it merely is probably the best in baseball. colon is the #6 starter, so having him back would simply be icing on the cake. there is no justifiable reason to think ervin WON'T lower his ERA this year, since he's been heralded as a future cy young kind of guy from the day he was signed and he already hacked four-tenths of a run off of it in his first full season. any jered weaver decline (bearing in mind, the roy oswalts of the world show us that there is no such thing as a guarnteed sophomore slump) is offset AND THEN SOME by not having jeff weaver and his 6+ERA and 3-10 record. kelvim escobar, if he finally gets run support, already is damn-near ace material.

every rotation in baseball has question marks...every single one of them. pointing out the fact that the angels have them too doesn't negate the solid state of the rotation either way.

BradysMom

12-13-2006, 10:05 PM

I'm a Canadian Braves fan and would love to see them do well next year. They seem to have had bridesmaid syndrome for quite some time now. However in recent years it's not even bridesmaid syndrome, it's more like guest book attendant syndrome.

I can't believe the Vernon Wells deal. Yeah he's one of the tops in the MLB but I think he's being overpaid.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-13-2006, 10:42 PM

i appreciate the thread title change since you all pretty much know i'm right and you're all wrong. of course, you don't need to love the angels. you just need to recognize that they are most likely better than your team.

vernon wells' deal will strictly be a reflection of the current market price on players like him, bradysmom, nothing more. godspeed, braves fan, they're going no where next year, and they handed marcus giles his walking papers.

brentholomew

12-14-2006, 01:19 AM

man i fucking hate the anaheim of california of LA angels

vinceq

12-14-2006, 06:54 AM

I'm a Canadian Braves fan

I thought I was the only one.

vinceq

12-14-2006, 06:59 AM

vernon wells' deal will strictly be a reflection of the current market price on players like him
I understand the money is fair market value, but Well's has presented himself in TO as a guy out for the money. He is going to have a career year next year so it may be a bad idea for him to sign right away. Fair market value this time next year is going to go up for him.
braves... they're going no where next year.
It's time to rebuild properly in ATL. Just soak up the memories of 95 and smile.

Mayor Quimby

12-14-2006, 07:42 AM

you just need to recognize that they are most likely better than your team.

The Indians will win more games in a tougher division. The best advantage the Angels have over the Indians is bullpen pitching.

Voodoo Monkey

12-14-2006, 07:48 AM

If Wells signs this deal, he'll be a HUGE bargain come 2009, never mind the end of the deal in 2013. Remember last year, when everyone was saying Burnett was overpaid? He's already looking cheap compared to market value.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-14-2006, 09:14 AM

lemme say, for the record, that that line was a joke first, quimby.The Indians will win more games in a tougher division. The best advantage the Angels have over the Indians is bullpen pitching.haven't i pretty much been THE indians advocate in this thread and the last the whole time? i don't like them as a team, but i recognize how good they could (should?) be constantly. i don't think the indians' rotation matches up well with the angels, either, so it's more of a pitching issue in general. that isn't to say that the indians rotation is bad (in fact, it's easily top 10 material), but again, 1-5, the angels don't have a weak link, or a question mark that is SO glaring that the player just may fall off the face of the earth (ie Weaver the Elder). it doesn't hurt that the 6th man is a year removed from a cy young award, either, injury or not. i won't even bother comparing offenses, because that's an exercise in futility. i'll just leave it to say that the media hype about how badly the angels need a bat and how awful their offense is and blah blah is way, way, way overstated. the farm system is alotting us some of the best in house solutions the game has to offer. as long as no one catches mono again, we already have first base solved.

you may win out on having the harder division, but i'll leave arguments about THAT for another day.

man i fucking hate the anaheim of california of LA angelsgood one. now tell the joke that isn't two years old, and will soon no longer be limited to just the angels anyway. oh, so you know, shortly following the name change to encompass L.A., the Angels signed a 10 year/$500 million contract to have their games covered by FSN, in a move all but directly connected to their desire to cash in on the other Los Angeles franchise...that would be more than the Dodgers' television rights. you know? that other team in L.A.?

Mayor Quimby

12-14-2006, 11:20 AM

lemme say, for the record, that that line was a joke first, quimby.

I know. I just wanted to make sure you had something to argue about. A day without DNS ripping someone isn't a day I want to be living in.

I would be shocked if the World Series champion doesn't come out of either the AL. All the divisions are deep, and should make for a great season.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-14-2006, 11:41 AM

you mean the AL or the mets. that's pretty much how i see it again, right now. if they get marcus giles, they MIGHT have the best lineup in baseball:

C: Paul LoDuca
1B: Carlos Delgado
2B: Marcus Giles
3B: David Wright
SS: Jose Reyes
RF: Shawn Green
CF: Carlos Beltran
LF: Moises Alou

Add to that a very deep bullpen (although it lost a few guys this offseason), and the fact that Minaya is NOT the type of GM to leave an issue unaddressed, no matter the price, and I can imagine 1 or two arms coming in to help the rotation. I also like Oliver Perez being rescued from the Pirates. Who knows what Pedro, Glavine, and Rick Peterson can do with a kid with that much upside, if the Pirates didn't ruin him entirely.

brentholomew

12-14-2006, 11:49 AM

lemme say, for the record, that that line was a joke first, quimby.haven't i pretty much been THE indians advocate in this thread and the last the whole time? i don't like them as a team, but i recognize how good they could (should?) be constantly. i don't think the indians' rotation matches up well with the angels, either, so it's more of a pitching issue in general. that isn't to say that the indians rotation is bad (in fact, it's easily top 10 material), but again, 1-5, the angels don't have a weak link, or a question mark that is SO glaring that the player just may fall off the face of the earth (ie Weaver the Elder). it doesn't hurt that the 6th man is a year removed from a cy young award, either, injury or not. i won't even bother comparing offenses, because that's an exercise in futility. i'll just leave it to say that the media hype about how badly the angels need a bat and how awful their offense is and blah blah is way, way, way overstated. the farm system is alotting us some of the best in house solutions the game has to offer. as long as no one catches mono again, we already have first base solved.

you may win out on having the harder division, but i'll leave arguments about THAT for another day.

good one. now tell the joke that isn't two years old, and will soon no longer be limited to just the angels anyway. oh, so you know, shortly following the name change to encompass L.A., the Angels signed a 10 year/$500 million contract to have their games covered by FSN, in a move all but directly connected to their desire to cash in on the other Los Angeles franchise...that would be more than the Dodgers' television rights. you know? that other team in L.A.?

i wasn't trying to be rhetorical or witty, just feeding the fire

Dewey Finn

12-14-2006, 01:17 PM

C: Paul LoDuca
1B: Carlos Delgado
2B: Marcus Giles
3B: David Wright
SS: Jose Reyes
RF: Shawn Green
CF: Carlos Beltran
LF: Moises Alou
QUOTE]
Can you explain why it might make better lineup than Yankees? Curious.

For the ones who's interested:
[QUOTE]The Yankees were big winners in the fifth annual MLB.com This Year in Baseball Awards, as Derek Jeter (Top Hitter), Chien-Ming Wang (Top Starter), Mariano Rivera (Top Closer) and Melky Cabrera (Top Play) were all honored with awards announced Thursday. http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article...rtnered=rss_nyy

Derek Jeter as top hitter (don't tell Mauer that), Wang as top starter and Rivera as top closer?? Tells you all you need to know about credibility about this award.

Also, if Cashman has a brain, he wouldn't waste too much time on signing a pitcher with 6.36 ERA in 40 appearances in 2006

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/479990p-403859c.html3

Dead Nigga Storage

12-14-2006, 01:32 PM

you forgot melky making top play. i dislike gary matthews jr., but his play is about a billion times better.

and we don't need to discuss what a farce the awards were. there were AT LEAST 5 hitters better than jeter.

notice i capitalized the word "might" for emphasis, ian. if it weren't for the dumbass DH rule, i think the mets would take it, because the yankees couldn't stock a power hitting junk-fielder to bolster the lineup.

frankly, i'd take reyes over jeter at short, beltran over damon in center, carlos delgado at first over the yankees platoon job (wilson?), moises is practically a draw with abreu, but cabrera is better than green (which hinges on if cabrera lives up to potential, or if he suffers in his first FULL year), wright is quickly becoming a fairly even draw with a-rod. posada goes over loduca like i said, the yankees get alot out of being able to bat giambi instead of glavine, otherwise i don't see some dominant edge one way or the other.

Mayor Quimby

12-14-2006, 01:48 PM

Finally, someone besides myself who thinks that Reyes will be better than Jeter.

Timothy

12-14-2006, 01:53 PM

I'm pretty excited about the bullpen this year. If they get Zito, they could potentially be the NL favorite going in.

I heard a rumor about 5 years, 90 million.

Even if they don't get him, the bullpen might end up Glavine, El Duque, Maine, Humber and Perez/Pelfrey/Vargas. I'm ok with that.

edit: As far as the Yankees are concerned, my lineup would look like:

Against Lefties:

Damon (LF)
Jeter (SS)
Abreu (RF)
Rodriguez (3B)
Matsui (DH)
Cano (2B)
Cabrera (CF)
Posada (C)
Phillips/Phelps (1B)

Against Righties:

Lineup A (To be used two thirds of time against all righties):

Damon (CF)
Jeter (SS)
Abreu (RF)
Giambi (DH)
Rodriguez (3B)
Matsui (LF)
Cano (2B)
Posada (C)
Juan Miranda (1B)

Lineup B (To be used one third of time against all righties):

Damon (LF)
Jeter (SS)
Abreu (RF)
Giambi (1B)
Rodriguez (3B)
Matsui (DH)
Cano (2B)
Posada (C)
Cabrera (CF)

THE GIAMBINO

12-14-2006, 02:18 PM

WHO THE FUCKIN SHIIT IS THE JUNK HITTER YOU FAGGOT DEAD BADWORD STORAGE????

GET SOME MUSCLES AND BE A REAL MANN, YOU SKINNY LITTLE CALIFORICATOR

BETTER NOT COME TO THE BRONX OR YOU'RE GET THE BEAT DOWN LIKE THE SISSY ANGELS OF FAGGOTRY

OMFG I RULE

thecapecoddah

12-14-2006, 02:23 PM

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2006/12/14/1166132153_0416.jpg

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2006/12/14/1166132651_9454.jpg

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2006/12/14/1166133193_1127.jpg

Dewey Finn

12-14-2006, 02:52 PM

Dead Nigga Storage

12-14-2006, 03:00 PM

giambino is a fake alias of moderators who comes in here as a joke.

moises is no more apt to decline than abreu, who ALREADY HAS started his decline. last year, reyes slugged better than jeter, stole a billion more bases, drove in a comparable number of runs FROM THE LEADOFF SPOT, WITH THE PICTHER BATTING IN FRONT OF HIM IN NON-LEADOFF INNINGS, struck out less, scored more runs, grounded into half the double plays, and played better defense, and he's a decade younger to boot. jeter wasn't this good at age 23. he's already better than jeter. i know i say it all the time, but yankees fans could not possibly be more blind on jeter. he might be THE most overrated player to ever play the game of baseball, bar none. i know i dislike the yankees, so it seems like bias, but it CANNOT be overstated how overrated he is.

Mayor Quimby

12-14-2006, 04:04 PM

moises is no more apt to decline than abreu, who ALREADY HAS started his decline. last year, reyes slugged better than jeter, stole a billion more bases, drove in a comparable number of runs FROM THE LEADOFF SPOT, WITH THE PICTHER BATTING IN FRONT OF HIM IN NON-LEADOFF INNINGS, struck out less, scored more runs, grounded into half the double plays, and played better defense, and he's a decade younger to boot. jeter wasn't this good at age 23. he's already better than jeter. i know i say it all the time, but yankees fans could not possibly be more blind on jeter. he might be THE most overrated player to ever play the game of baseball, bar none. i know i dislike the yankees, so it seems like bias, but it CANNOT be overstated how overrated he is.

DNS you can't call Jeter overrated, he is so clutch.......

Dead Nigga Storage

12-14-2006, 04:06 PM

oh yeah, i forgot. didn't he also save a baby from a burning building, or was that jose canseco?

brentholomew

12-14-2006, 06:09 PM

when everybody freaks out at the very idea of a player being overrated, you know he's overrated

BradysMom

12-14-2006, 07:14 PM

I remember back when I was about 11 or 12 I used to think that Alex Gonzalez (the Blue Jays one) was going to be better than ARod or Jeter. Boy was I a misguided child.

Mayor Quimby

12-14-2006, 07:21 PM

Eh, when I was a biased bugger, I felt that Vizquel was the best defensive shortstop this side of the Wizard of Oz. Oh wait he was, and people like Jeter and ARod got all the recognition. This might sound crazy, and obviosuly I would campaign for it, with him being my favorite player, but Vizquel isn't too far off of Hall of Fame numbers. I know he'll never be voted in, but he deserves some recognition, he certainly rarely got it during his prime.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-14-2006, 07:25 PM

and in the same way you would want vizquel him in the hall, i would argue that people who think jeter should go in (ESPECIALLY those that say he should be a first ballot guy if he retired RIGHT NOW), are batshit loco. absolutely not.

there was actually a study done by some ESPN guys that showed that jeter has the 2nd or 3rd worst range at shortstop in all of baseball, and that he might be one of the worst gloves of all the starting SS in baseball.

smyce

12-14-2006, 07:31 PM

Career .317. a shade under 80 RBI a season. 4 World Series and countless clutch hits in regular season and post season play. .976 field%

I hate him, but how is he not a Hall of Famer?

Mayor Quimby

12-14-2006, 07:37 PM

Errors
Omar Vizquel-172
Ozzie Smith- 281

Smith's got the edge in games played, but Vizquel will surpass that this year.

I'm just going to say it, biased or not, Vizquel is the best defensive shortstop to ever play the game of baseball. Infact, having looked at that I don't care if he is a first ballot or not, but he should be in the HOF. His offensive numbers are better than Smith, his defensive numbers are better too. Smith has him bested in Gold Gloves with 13 to 11. I'll say it again, best defensive short stop ever.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-14-2006, 07:51 PM

toss fielding percentage/errors out the window. archaic and useless stat. completely.

80 RBIs is completely pedestrian. 4 world series rings? so fucking what? scott spiezio is half way there. shane spencer has 3. mike timlin has 2. david eckstein has two. everyone that stuck around on the yankees from 1996-2001 has 4. you get rings from being on good teams, not from single handidly carrying the team on your back. if derek jeter was on pittsburgh, he'd have zero. it's about coming up with the right team at the right time. hell, barry bonds has zero! so does ted williams. fuck'em both. and the .317 average is very good, but it's averages, in conjunction with TOTALS that dictate these things. his sample size is still way too small to decide any such thing.

derek jeter is a deserving all-star, and a very, very good talent. but cooperstown dreams have been manufactured because he's a media darling and the pride of the best known franchise in sports history. ESPN, SI, and every major sports outlet in the world will show you him diving head first into the stands for that famous play. they won't show you the 10 other shortstops who did the same thing that same day, because it's not new york, it's not the yankees, and it's not derek jeter. that's not angry ranting. that's truth. look at ian's earlier results for the "this year in baseball" awards results. yankees, yankees, yankees. whether they deserve it or not, yankees. the media is inundated with the accompishments of them SO much that we never see that other players, for less forunate teams and less fortunate media markets are doing the same goddamn things every day that the "immortal" derek jeter is doing.

that's where you get the idea about clutch hits, too. does he get alot of them? hell yeah he does. but if you listened to the media, you'd assume that david ortiz and derek jeter are the only two guys in baseball who can put a ball in play with runners in scoring position. earlier in this thread (or late in the last one) i already deconstructed the myth that he's a postseason god (lower career averages in the postseason than in the regular season was the jist). i used to see troy glaus get walk off hits with regularity. did ESPN show the highlights? nah, derek jeter hit a home run that night, so it's time to analyze the many ways in which he saved humanity or whatever with his heroics. i get it, and i freely admit that he's a very good player, but he's just that...a very good one. having him saturate the airwaves and putting him in the shrine of new york city has elevated him beyond fact. the fact is, he's very good. not the player of a generation. he may be a face of the sport, but that's for the numbers, it's because he's derek jeter, a new york yankee. all-star, yes. hall, hell no.

Dewey Finn

12-14-2006, 08:06 PM

oh yeah, i forgot. didn't he also save a baby from a burning building, or was that jose canseco?
And ARod saved a child from a traffic, but yet no one talks about it....
Who am I kidding, let's move on.

Oh, and by the way, Barry Bonds has better clutch stat than Jeter, I've noticed.

Thinking about DMat getting 8.6 milliion bananas per year is a good deal for Sox since pitchers like Meche is getting 11 million per year. But the total cost for getting Matsuzaka would be $103 million. This is 103 million bucks that Sox won't be spend elsewhere, it's gone. The total annual cost for Sox would be 17.16 million. This is more than how Yankees pay ARod (Texas pay the part of his salary).

http://www.nomaas.org/images/50mil.jpg

smyce

12-14-2006, 08:18 PM

I only added in the field percentage stat cause you had earlier mentioned how his glove is subpar. The field % stat proves otherwise.

I understand you hate him and you have an anti-Jeter sentiment. But you really didnt give any reasons as to why he's NOT a hall of fame player. His average is really good and 80 RBI a season from the top of the order is really good as well. Move him to the 4 or 5 spot for the majority of his career and the RBI's probably go up. The World Series rings may not be important, but its still noteworthy that he has played on 4 World Series winning teams during his career. I'm not saying or even implying he single handedly won these championships.

His postseason avg is .314. His World Series avg is .302. I disagree with you and saying we dont see any other clutch hits on ESPN. You see em every single night. Not only that, but the Jeter diving in the stands play is not a play you see everynight. It was a fantastic play and if someone else made that play it would be on Web Gems, SC top 10 and every other possible place we could see it.

Your clutch hit argument is kinda crazy. I mean when a guy on Pittsburgh hits a game winning double and moves the Pirates to 60-95 how can you expect that to be shown to the magnitude of Jeter's clutch wins that are often deciding pennant races. The fact that he does play on the biggest stage, with the most pressure and is still able to perform at a high level only furthers the argument for him being a hall of famer.

His stats are there. His performance is there in both regular and post season play. Everything you said was basically your opinion on Yankee media bias. I agree the media bias is there, but that shouldnt be the only reason a .317 career hitter should be left out of the Hall of Fame.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-14-2006, 08:47 PM

i could sit here and rattle off a list of guys who averaged 80 RBIs for their careers that would terrificly underwhelm you. it's the plateau of a solid major leaguer. not a hall of famer.

again, when you say the guy on pittsburgh gets a hit to make them 60-95, it's somehow less significant than jeter...sure, maybe to the team, but not to a guy's hall of fame standing. you can't penalize someone for NOT getting a chance to play on that platform, and i see no reason to reward them because they were "born" into wealth.

you're too fixated on the .317 average. I never said he should be kept out of the hall at career's end, because i don't know what he'll look like at the end. as is right now, absolutely not. if i got 317 hits in 1,000 at-bats i don't deserve it because of sample size, likewise, he doesn't. too small a sample size. and hitting for average is a very, very one dimensional stat. that's basically his game. a guy who hits for average, with a poor glove, VERY mediocre power, and no more clutch hits than any number of guys who are going to not make the hall. all you're telling me is "countless clutch hits". i'm telling you that yeah, he gets alot of them...but show me the stat that shows he has significantly more than anyone else, or even marginally more. that's a hall of fame player. not someone who gets alot of coverage for his clutch hits. there is a website (i think ian) posted here earlier that showed a player's total walk off hits or game winning hits as part of his statistics, and i'm struggling to find it right now, but i did thumb through on jeter and didn't see him topping any of the lists, or even coming close. there are a TON (dozens and dozens) of guys with the same or better RISP numbers as jeter, or close-and-late numbers.

and OF COURSE they show other highlights on ESPN. but if you want to tell me right now that you HONESTLY think that they show an equal percentage of clutch hits for, say, adrian beltre, as they do derek jeter then you're stoned out of your gourd. can i back that up with a website or statistic? no, i can't. i can, however, back it up with 10 years of sportscenter and baseball tonight watching, as can anyone else who watches the channel. derek jeter's accomplishments, via the media, have affected people's perceptions of him. what would otherwise be a career mired in simple "stardom" has become SUPER STARDOM because every accomplishment he makes is magnified. think of it like the shark attacks of a few years ago. on the news every night. people insist that there is an immediate danger of going to the beach. people panic. and it turns out the number of shark attacks that year was actually down from the previous several years. point being, the perception that jeter has some number of clutch hits over anyone else in baseball is, at best, unsubstantiated.

talk all you want about "woulda coulda shoulda" regarding jeter's place in the batting order. yeah, if he batted third, maybe he would have had a few more. ok, now take him out of the best lineups in baseball for his 11 year career. suddenly, with no protection around him, he never sees anything good to hit. he already strikes out a ton. god knows what would have happened without protection. he'd be chasing breaking balls in the dirt and batting .290 with the lineup protection that a jason bay gets in pittsburgh, or an alfonso soriano got in washington, d.c. if you want to play the "he could have done better, if" game, then you play the other way, too. and being born into success with the yankees, and being a part of a dynasty makes much stronger cases for how inflated his stats ARE as is. he's got the golden spoon in his mouth with the yankees, and has spent every day of his career having pitchers HAVE to throw strikes to him, or else face sheffield, a-rod, o'neill, williams, matsui, or martinez. give anyone that protection in baseball, their numbers jump through the roof. never understate the importance of good lineup protection.

fielding percentage doesn't disprove anything about his standing as a good fielder. look into a statistic called range factor. alot of conservative baseball statistics are starting to be deconstructed today in favor of stats that look at a larger picture. derek jeter's career range factor is below league average, and is even below that of the back up shortstops that have played in his place in new york over the years. the problem with fielding percentage is very glaring: it only can count the balls that you get to. his ability to get to the ball (rather, inability) is more important than anything else. yeah, if he touches the ball, he has a DECENT (not great) fielding percentage. problem is, he doesn't get to a lot of balls. that costs them a ton of runs.

what i said was not "my opinion on media bias". it's a statement of fact to say that the yankees get more press coverage than any other team in baseball. i simply used that fact to explain how a very good man was inundated in our lives to be elevated to the level of something more.

if he starts hitting on the plateaus (3,000 hits and the like) to go with the averages...plateaus that show sustainability, then yeah, maybe he should go. i have high expectations of anyone who goes into that hall, and he just hasn't even touched them yet.

smyce

12-14-2006, 09:04 PM

Your argument for a Yankee media bias I agree with. Im not saying they dont get more coverage. All Im saying is the coverage is more often than not deserved, more so than a Pirates Nationals game that may end on a walk off. If Jeter is hitting clutch in a game that puts the Yankees in first place it should get more coverage than your run of the mill MLB walk off hit.

If you want to say he has a shitty glove thats fine. Im fairly certain not every single hall of famer has had a remarkable glove. I dont think he's that bad, but our opinions on him are obviously differing.

Yes 317 out of 1000 dont get you in. But thats not what Jeter has. He has seven times that sample size.

If Jeter dies in a freak accident tomorrow with the stats he has right this second, he's a 100% lock.

You wont change mine, I wont change yours. I still fail to gather just one reason in your two posts as to why he doesnt deserve entry into the HOF.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-14-2006, 09:10 PM

it's not my opinion that jeter is a below average fielder. it's like arguing (to a lesser extent, more extreme example) that rey ordonez was a power hitter. stats say otherwise, all there is to it.

and the 317/1000 comment was the same way...just mentioning the sample size, of which jeter has one that does not meet any real hall standards.

and again, you're not substantiating anything either. you're saying "he gets lots of clutch hits". i'm saying he doesn't get more than anyone else by some landslide margin. and my complaint has NOTHING to do with "it's not fair, brad wilkerson's walk off homer wasn't on ESPN!". it has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that, because jeter is getting more airplay time, the myth that he is a walk-off god, or a clutch king is being exaggerated to a great degree. it isn't that other players are being ignored, it's that jeter is being made to appear to be something that he isn't.

likewise, i fail to gather how you think he SHOULD be in. basically, it comes down to ".317! .317! .317!". good, he's a one dimensional hitter and (at best) an average fielder who has benefitted his entire career from the best lineup protection baseball can offer, so that he never had to worry about being pitched to. he's a product of his environment, and a one-dimensional one, at that.

smyce

12-14-2006, 09:14 PM

Just wanted to get the last word...nothing more to add.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-14-2006, 09:17 PM

...

for the record, i don't hate him. i hate the yankees, and i hate his unfounded popularity. by this weekend i'm gonna rattle off a list of 100 better players that have played substantial parts of their careers in my lifetime.

red sox are, for the record, quickly becoming my least favorite team in baseball. that USED to be the yankees.

smyce

12-14-2006, 09:22 PM

Looking forward to the list where Jeter ranks 101st since 1986.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-14-2006, 09:26 PM

you say that like it's a mark on his record to somehow be ranked 101st (or maybe 102nd, OMG!) out of THOUSANDS of people. last i checked, the top 10 percent (5%?) of a group is an honor of a place to be. you're starting to overrate him yourself. to save myself a shitload of time, it won't be in order. and to make it more believable for you that i am capable of doing it, it's going to include players that have 3-4 years down so far in their careers who will already become better than him, or at least debatably so. sorry sox fans, david ortiz won't make the cut.

smyce

12-14-2006, 09:27 PM

Nah man. Im only saying I find it hard to believe that there are 100 players better than Derek Jeter from 1986-2006 and thus I am looking forward to your list.

Yes 101 would be great, but Id probably have him somewhere around 40 at worst.

Mayor Quimby

12-14-2006, 09:35 PM

My only question is will Danny Tartabull make the list?

smyce

12-14-2006, 09:36 PM

Oh believe me, lots of Braves in my mind that Im asking the same question about.

thecapecoddah

12-15-2006, 08:21 AM

toss fielding percentage/errors out the window. archaic and useless stat. completely. 80 RBIs is completely pedestrian. 4 world series rings? so fucking what? scott spiezio is half way there. shane spencer has 3. mike timlin has 2. david eckstein has two. everyone that stuck around on the yankees from 1996-2001 has 4. you get rings from being on good teams, not from single handidly carrying the team on your back. if derek jeter was on pittsburgh, he'd have zero. it's about coming up with the right team at the right time. hell, barry bonds has zero! so does ted williams. fuck'em both. and the .317 average is very good, but it's averages, in conjunction with TOTALS that dictate these things. his sample size is still way too small to decide any such thing.

good lord you're being unreasonable. are you looking at all the above stats and whatnot separately? combine everything together and you, without a doubt, have a hall of famer (yes, even if he retired tomorrow). over the past decade, derek jeter has meant to the yankees what joe dimaggio meant to the yanks in the 1940's (speaking of joe, while he was a better player, he only had a measly 2200 or so hits). jeter, their captain, is the yankees - a team that not only won four world championships while he's been there but has won the tough AL East nine years in a row. along with steinbrenner's wallet and teammate mariano rivera (another future hall of famer), he played a central role in resurrecting the yankee dynasty. he's a seven-time all-star along with MLB rookie of the year and World Series MVP! five seasons with at least 200 hits! he's arguably been the best overall shortstop in baseball over the past decade (granted, some people would take a-rod or tejada over him). yes being with the yankees certainly helps his cause in determining whether or not he's a HOF player... there's no denying that. but he was and is the leader of these yankees and being with them should in no way work against him.

if he were forced to retire today, five years from now he would be a first-ballot hall of famer and get 80% of the vote. unlike many outstanding players of this era you haven't heard his name mentioned alongside steroids or whatever, so there's nothing to work against him like mcgwire and bonds. there are 278 people in the hall of fame, not 78. the hall's certainly exclusive, but apparently not as exclusive as you'd like to think it is. get over it and rethink who you view is worthy of enshrinement like most of the actual voters have over the years.

nevertheless, all of this arguing is moot since he's well on his way to 3000 hits... you said "maybe" he should go into the hall if reaches that number. you're insane.

:bang:

12-15-2006, 08:44 AM

i hate to bring up other sports, buuuuut
tiki: hall
jeter: no hall
LOL

Dead Nigga Storage

12-15-2006, 09:18 AM

pro football hall and baseball hall are apples and oranges, danno. i think you know that....first, i didn't actually mean "maybe i would vote for him" if he reached 3,000. that was worded poorly. it was meant as a "maybe he'll reach 3,000, THEN i'll vote for him".

i'm not trying to evaluate his stats seperately, i'm just showing how ridiculously human he is. bring his numbers together and they STILL aren't there. 2,200 hits? there's a list a mile long of guys not in the hall with that many, i'm sure. .317 average IS very, very, very, very, very good. i just want the milemarkers first, or else the sample is just too small. league average power, no glove, good but not great speed. basically, you're showing alot of very good plateaus that, even when brought together, fall short of any benchmarks of a true hall of fame player. and like i said before, my standards for the hall are way, way higher than they currently are. at least half the accolades everyone wants to pile on him in here are awards of objectivity (he never EARNED a single gold glove in his career), or marketing bias. his pure statistical output TODAY falls well short of what i would demand of any hall of fame player. all the talk about "blah blah intangibles" is basically the media concocted bullshit about how great he is when they can't come up with a legitimate argument for why his output isn't matching his coverage. he didn't resurrect the yankees dynasty. consistent $100+ million (and now $200+ million) payrolls and 24-39 other men in conjunction with jeter did. if you want to tell me that if you took jeter off that team from 96-01, and replaced him with...omar vizquel, nomar garciaparra, alex rodriguez, miguel tejada, david eckstein, etc., etc., that they would somehow fall short of the world title, then you're high. yes, he did his part in helping, but he's not the fucking lord and savior of the new york yankees. even if he was, it's an immeasurable, biased gauge of how to do it. how do you make tangible the intangibles? by listening to a bunch of media wizards spout off about how they saw him play everyday, but have no basis for comparison because they were too busy focusing on new york to realize similar guys were doing similar things in other markets? 4 world series rings? moot point. rings don't equal greatness. stop using the argument. dan marino is still probably the greatest QB ever, and barry bonds the greatest hitter. like i said, i understand how good he is (and how good everyone seems to THINK he is, which is alot greater than the truth), but as of this exact moment, no. by the end of his career, most likely, but not yes because i haven't seen the totals.

edit: p.s., the list is past 50 right now, and i'm just picking up steam. yes smyce, lots o' braves.

thecapecoddah

12-15-2006, 09:32 AM

okay, think whatever you want to. fact is if something happened to him and his career ended before the '07 season, five years from now the voters would enshrine him in the hall. there's no doubt in my mind that they would... call the voters stupid or whatever you want, but he would get in.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-15-2006, 09:39 AM

oh, i know...i never said he wouldn't. i think it's fairly obvious at the point that the derek jeter hype machine is completely unstoppable. i never even tried to argue whether or not he WOULD. i just hate settling for what will be or what is, when there seems to be so much more in favor of what should be.

Timothy

12-15-2006, 09:45 AM

I'll say this, if he starts at a 2 or 3 position instead of lead-off, his numbers will improve significantly.

:bang:

12-15-2006, 09:51 AM

pro football hall and baseball hall are apples and oranges, danno. i think you know that
i know that you know zippy about either

Dead Nigga Storage

12-15-2006, 11:04 AM

yup, you got me there danno. i sure don't.

ftt, i already addressed that point somewhere in the mess. look it over. if you're going to say "he could have hit better if he...", then you also have to say "he could have hit worse if he...", and there are ALOT more factors going for that, seeing as he was on the yankees for his entire career. also, for the record, jeter DID spend a TON of his career in the #2 spot, i'd venture to guess something like 70% of it.

thecapecoddah

12-15-2006, 11:14 AM

hey DNS can I hear your hall of fame opinions on (but not limited to):

jeff bagwell (might squeak by in the future)
mike mussina (never dominant, but if he reaches 275 wins he will be considered)
curt schilling (cursed with being on shitty teams during his prime, if he has a 17+ win final season in '07 he'll also be strongly considered)

also anyone else you want to argue about, like your boy paul o'neill

Dead Nigga Storage

12-15-2006, 11:32 AM

i'll get back to them later (bagwell and schilling are on the above-jeter list, for those in dire anticipation for it). mussina depends on where he finishes, and paul o'neill absolutely not. an all-star player, maybe, but he would be the biggest new york-media concocted hall of famer ever if he somehow made it into the hall. a little over 2,000 hits in a LONG career, didn't bat .290, not even 300 home runs. if jim rice is a fringe player, then o'neill, all bias aside, would be a monumentally upsetting pick. if he made it, garret anderson makes it. interesting stat for you: since 1996 garret is second only to (gasp) derek jeter in total hits, and he's been on-and-off injured for the last 3 years.

let me re-emphasize something important for the people in shock about my anti-jeter hall shit: he should almost definitely make it in based on his final accomplishments. just as of now, no. i've just never been a fan of the short, quick, and sweet careers. longevity is a BIT overrated, but i still key it in quite a lot.

schilling, i'll say maybe. 14th all time in Ks, 42nd all-time in adjusted ERA, and likely to finish around the top 50 in wins, despite being hosed by playing for the phillies for a long time. 3 time runner up in cy young, but no award might hurt some. hard to say.

bagwell definitely. damn near a career .300 hitter, almost 450 homers, more than 1,500RBIs, and 200+ stolen bases to boot. probably among the top 3 most feared sluggers on the mid-90s. unless a steroid accusation comes out, then i have to say yes.

Timothy

12-15-2006, 11:34 AM

Meh, you're probably right but I mean, it all boils down to a semantics argument of "he could have hit better if he...", "he could have hit worse if he..." and it's just pointless. Most people would agree that he's a lock to go into the Hall. I do agree that his mythical status is a direct result of playing in the biggest market in all of sports, so I can see where you're coming from with the media spin argument. This is a pretty weak point to argue on, but I think Jeter has certain intangibles that shine in late innings, the same way Ortiz shines in clutch situations, and it does mythicize these players to a great degree.........but I think they do deserve it.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-15-2006, 11:57 AM

that's part of my general argument, though. his intangibles are no more prevalent than any number of players throughout baseball. it's just that with the media exposure, his intangibles are given a chance to take center stage every night, across the country. so while you never see the intangible contributions of players on 27 other teams (negating both new york teams and boston's), you do get to see how badly beltran choked in '05, or how great jeter was in '99, or how many times ortiz got a walk off hit in '06. if you want to argue that he has intangibles, fine...but it's near impossible to argue that he has them more than all 1,000 guys who step onto the field every year.

edit: lester beats cancer, but sox add cancer to team: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2698646

have fun with donnelly's decline.

Timothy

12-15-2006, 12:02 PM

Have to admit, I'm getting pretty damn tired of seeing that play against the A's(was it them?) in 2001 where he relayed the ball to the catcher from his glove for the out. ESPN couldn't get enough of it, and I'm pretty sure everyone was getting sick of seeing it.

ETA: Trupiano is done. End of an era.:(

Dewey Finn

12-15-2006, 12:27 PM

If Jeter dies in a freak accident tomorrow with the stats he has right this second, he's a 100% lock.
.
That's what happened to poor Thurman Munson, but is he in HOF right now?

So much for wanting Wells being in next year's FA:

Vernon Wells Close To Signing With Jays
According to Ken Rosenthal, the Blue Jays are "on the verge" of signing center fielder Vernon Wells to a seven-year, $126MM deal. It would include a full no-trade and an opt-out clause.

As we've seen with opt-out clauses lately, that might make this less than a seven-year contract in reality. The crazy part is that the $18MM annual salary is seen as a loyalty discount.

As for Donnelly, his breaking ball has never been effective since that pine tar incident. Geez you guys lost a good prospect for him... there will be another pine tar buddy for him y'know (Tavarez lol)

Dead Nigga Storage

12-15-2006, 12:40 PM

donnelly has never been about his breaking ball. it's his split finger and his regular fastball that always had good movement and location.

smyce

12-15-2006, 01:05 PM

That's what happened to poor Thurman Munson, but is he in HOF right now?
Munson's stats are not even close to Jeter's...Horrible example.

yes smyce, lots o' braves.
This is good news. I fully expect Terry Pendalton, David Justice, Fred McGriff and Franciso Cabrera to be mentioned.

This list is gonna be awesome!!

thecapecoddah

12-15-2006, 01:37 PM

I was kidding about paul o'neill but thanks anyway for your in-depth answer mr. DNS :bang:

smyce

12-15-2006, 01:45 PM

I sure hope you arent planning to have pitchers on this list. Being the astute baseball man you are, you're aware comparing pitchers and hitters is just ridiculous.

Just throwing that out there.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-15-2006, 02:12 PM

oh jesus. not only do i have pitchers, i have a certain pitcher that has been a jeter teammate. the adage that you can't compare one is dated as fuck (and yes, you can compare their value, every single GM that has ever swapped batters and pitchers has done so). when you're doing the comparison, all you're saying is "x is a more valuable pitcher to his team than y is a hitter to his team". there's nothing wrong with it, and a billion people would argue likewise. i couldn't come up with 100 hitters alone, which is why i never said such a thing. however, i wouldn't doubt that 100 exist if i wanted to go in and start including ryan-howard-types, which i am avoiding.

and no terry pendelton. sorry.

smyce

12-15-2006, 02:41 PM

I knew you were doing pitchers which is the only reason I posted that. Not looking forward to the list anymore, even though I still dont think you can come up with 100...well I correct that. You will make a list of 100 players but over half will not make any sense to rank ahead of Jeter.

Those 4 Braves I mentioned along with Chipper are the best 5 Braves that I can come up with (excluding pitchers) and not a single one would be ranked ahead of Jeter.

Using pitchers is a complete cop out in my opinion. Even so, its the same reason a pitcher never wins the MVP and that argument comes up every single year. A pitcher just does not have the same impact on a team as an everyday player does. The only pitcher I can think of that I would put on a list from 1986-2006 ahead of Jeter is Rivera (which undoubtedly will be on your list).

There is no way you could up with 100 hitters. If you could, you would which is the reason you are using pitchers. I cant prove it of course, but you are always talking about how you are such a baseball guy yet you are gonna make a list of pitchers that had more impact on their teams than Derek Jeter.

This is list will no longer be awesome. I cant believe I've spent the better part of 24 hours defending Derek fucking Jeter.

Spartan

12-15-2006, 03:35 PM

fucking epic.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-15-2006, 03:36 PM

when did i say the list was a list of players that had more impact on their team than jeter? i said it was a list of 100 players better than jeter. ie, roger clemens is a better pitcher than jeter is a shortstop. there is absolutely nothing invalid about that, and it's not a cop out in the least. if anything, it's more a cop out to invalidate a list because it includes pitchers. that's an utter bullshit, archaic, cop out of an argument on your part. and pitchers never win the MVP award? try telling that to carl hubbell (twice), dizzy dean, lefty grove, bucky walters, spud chandler, hal newhouser (twice), mort cooper, jim konstanty, bobby shantz, don newcombe, denny mcclain, bob gibson, vida blue, rollie fingers, willie hernandez, roger clemens, and dennis eckersley.

and fred mcgriff better than derek jeter? fuck yes he is. a bigger impact to his team? how the fuck do you gauge that besides what yankees fans and a ridiculously slanted, overzealous media has to say on the topic?

smyce

12-15-2006, 03:46 PM

Just 2 in the last 20 years. 40 MVP's and 2 pitchers. Sure they win the MVP but not with frequency that your list makes it seem they do.

Fred McGriff would be on a list of the top 100 players of the last 20 years no doubt, but so would Derek Jeter and on my list, I'd have Jeter ahead of him.

Its all subjective of course and I only kid...I still look forward to your list ;).

Dewey Finn

12-16-2006, 05:34 PM

If Yankees don't finish this deal until the deadline...uh... shame on them
Kei Igawa-S-Yankees Dec. 16 - 6:38 pm et

The Yankees are likely to have Kei Igawa signed to a five-year, $20 million contract by Sunday.
Igawa will have to take a physical first. The two sides are facing a Dec. 28 deadline to get a deal done.
Source: New York Times
from rotoworld.com

4 million per year doens't seem so bad considering how they are overpaying other pitchers. But will he be good as his price?

Also, they are talking about 3 way-trade (Yanks, Braves, Bucs) that could be accomplished. Which could:
send Mike Gonzalez to Yanks
send Adam LaRoche to Bucs
send Melky Cabrera + Scott Proctor to Braves

I wouldn't mind sending Proctor packing to Braves and getting Gonzalez, but I'd hate to see Melky leaving. :( But since relievers like Gonzalez doesn't grow on trees (converted all 24 save opportunities into saves last year)

Just trade Pavano to somewhere else who gets paid 10 million per year for banging Alyssa Milano. Wait, they split up...

BradysMom

12-16-2006, 08:51 PM

Chipper had the chance to be a legend in his own time. He was in the age of short stops when it was difficult to top the top 5. I also think he let his personal life and problems get to him.

Mike

12-16-2006, 10:25 PM

so who else stops reading the thread when every 2nd post is DNS and ________?

Spartan

12-17-2006, 01:36 PM

you.

most productive and enticing this thread has been in weeks.

thecapecoddah

12-17-2006, 04:02 PM

JD Drew's physical reveals shoulder problems, red sox to yell at boras - http://story.scout.com/a.z?s=228&p=2&c=601667

Dewey Finn

12-17-2006, 05:01 PM

JD Drew's physical reveals shoulder problems, red sox to yell at boras - http://story.scout.com/a.z?s=228&p=2&c=601667
Good riddance to both Drew and Boras. If Red Sox DID trade Manny when the trade rumors were hot, imagine how screwed up they'd have been right now.. :o|

Mike

12-17-2006, 06:16 PM

good. i'm not a fan of jd, or any guy who continually SCREWS teams, nor of the red sox.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-17-2006, 06:23 PM

i think it would have been worse for the red sox (better for non-fans) if it went undiscovered. i would have preferred seeing the sox blow all that money, only to find out the problem later, a la the mets and victor zambrano a few years ago.

thecapecoddah

12-18-2006, 08:47 AM

that huge deal still baffles me. and if he's lost some of his power due to shoulder problems, we've just inherited a slightly younger version of trot nixon.... we might as well just keep trot.

Dewey Finn

12-18-2006, 12:11 PM

Mike Gonzalez: Headed to Yankees in Trade for Cabrera

RotoWire.com Staff - RotoWire.com
Saturday, December 16, 2006
Update: The Yankees are close to sending Melky Cabrera and a prospect to Pittsburgh for Gonzalez, the New York Post reports.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Ak0wj6fU1xUzHJWMWl.ufRKFCLcF?slug=rotowire-ikeonzalezeadedtoank&prov=rotowire&type=fantasy
Melky and a prospect for Mike Gonzalez? If he comes the Yankee bullpen sure will be better than other AL East bullpens... but Angels still have best in AL.

Rivera
Gonzalez
Farnsworth
Proctor
Bruney
Myers

I don't think Gonzalez will be next Quantrill, Gabe White or Heredia at all. More like Tom Gordon :coolspot:

According to Yomiuri Shimbun:

The New York Yankees and Kei Igawa both played second fiddle in the posting sweepstakes. Igawa, though, got a first-rate deal it was learned on Monday, agreeing to a five-year, 20 million dollars contract with the Bronx Bombers.
The Yanks earned the right to negotiate with Igawa in late November and wasted little time getting the southpaw in pinstripes.
The deal for the 27-year-old, who was 14-9 this past season with a 2.97 ERA for the Hanshin Tigers, also includes incentives.

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/sports/20061219TDY24003.htm
4 million per year for Igawa is decent since Matz is getting 8+million per year.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-18-2006, 12:18 PM

the best in BASEBALL you mean ;)

i think you gave up too much for him, but that's just me. he's good, but he's been pitching to national league hitters, and now gets to go to the AL in the division probably best known for its power hitters, and he'll be 29 years old fairly early this season. cabrera won't be 23 until august. it seems a bit steep for just a setup man (and maybe heir to the closer role if he sticks around?). and isn't igawa the guy that wright said doesn't have the stuff for the major league level? if he's coming to the majors, the last place he should be is on the yankees, or even in the AL east.

i like gonzalez, so i'll give the benefit of the doubt on him...igawa i'm going to guess will be a bust.

BradysMom

12-18-2006, 08:14 PM

Rumour up here in the Great White North is that Blue Jay Reed Johnson is possible trade bait. He's an increadibly underrated player with loads of promise. If he gets traded that team is increadibly lucky.

Dead Nigga Storage

12-18-2006, 08:16 PM

i had heard alex rios was on the market, but reed is, too? why would they do that, they're poised to make a run right now.

BradysMom

12-18-2006, 08:18 PM

i had heard alex rios was on the market, but reed is, too? why would they do that, they're poised to make a run right now.

Apparantly it's one or the other. I say can Rios and keep Reed. He's a personal favorite.

vinceq

12-19-2006, 06:45 AM

Rios has more of an upside but Reed is coming off his best year. Rios had the potential to be just as good as Vernon Wells but Reed Johnson is the kind of guy that Toronto fans can get behind. Which is a shame because Torontonians have the habit of deifying players with little talent and villifying those with talent.
I say keep Rios and deal Reed even though Rios will bring in a better trade value.
It would also be nice to have a bit of diversity of this team. They're starting to look like a team from the '50s.

Dewey Finn

12-19-2006, 12:06 PM

Latest On Yankees and Mike Gonzalez
A baseball source indicated to MLBTradeRumors.com that the Yankees and Pirates are working on a trade that could be Mike Gonzalez and Nate McLouth for Ian Kennedy and Melky Cabrera. This is backed up by our good friend Jake at Bucco Blog, where Gonzalez, Kennedy, and Cabrera were mentioned in a recent podcast.

Of the four, the player with which I was least familiar was Kennedy. The right-handed starter celebrates his 22nd birthday today. Baseball America ranked Kennedy fifth among Yankee prospects. BA's John Manuel indicates Kennedy has excellent command with an upper 80s fastball and a sinking changeup. He manages to keep the ball down. Kennedy is still a ways off from the bigs and should start '07 at high Class A.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/
A new deal for getting Mike Gonzalez AND Nate McLouth? We'd give up Ian Kennedy out of already stacked RHP-filled Yankee farm. But McLouth?... he'd be good 4th OF for us, but I'd like to see Duffy instead of McLouth.

Mike Loretta??? JUST DO IT
ESPN's Buster Olney says the Yankees have been in contact with Mark Loretta about their opening at first base.

Loretta's finished with OPSs of 707 and 706 the last two years, so he looks like he'd be an incredibly weak option as a regular first baseman, though the insurance he'd provide at second base would be nice.