Season 17,18 and 19 discussion

[Drunk Barney]

Season 13-16 are very, very similer in my opinion. But I think many would agree this Season, has been a step down since the other 4. Is the movie distracting Al? Though Al did say this is the best they've ever done. I have to say that worrys me. if Al thinks it's the best they've ever done, will that mean he will stay on for 19?

Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed the Jean era, but I'm now finding it hard to say I'm enjoying the Jean era. Whilst he throwing classics from time to time, it appears the show is slipping in the way of Season 10 and 12 grade wise. Many would say that's way too harsh, but that's what I think. Though I do think 10 and 12 are underrated (despite being bad rank wise).

So is Al beginning to take the show too far. I very much belive so. The show is now despreate for a new showrunner. It's just not fresh anymore.

So 17 has been, IMO the worst of the Jean era. Yes, I know it hasn't finished but I can't see much of a change.

What I am hoping happened at the end of HAB, is Al has realised that he's been doing it for 5 years, and will now try something a little more fresher. It's finally taken a step. Is this a new beginning for the Jean era? Will this turn into 13-16 then 17+ then 10-12. Or will Season 18 find its feet again?

With the movie now written, I wonder if that will tempt the likes of Jon Vitti, John Swartzwelder, David Mirkin, George Meyer and Greg Daniels to return. All classic writers. Will this help the show improve? Probably.

With Season 19 signed on, will this mean more Jean. IAB isn't made yet I don't think, so there is still time for a new showrunner. But will Jean step down?

I'm guessing 75-80% says he will stay. We'll just have to see.

All I know is that the show has deteriorated. Either the show needs to improve again or a new showrunner needs to come in. Otherwise the show could slip back into it's dark days or something more closer than 13-16 was.

[Nameless]

17 is so far the worst of the Jean years although it's by no means awful. I do think that it is time for a new showrunner, most preferably Matt Selman.

David Mirkin is already working on the show, BTW...he just doesn't have as much of a part in it as 5 & 6 (obviously).

[Drunk Barney]

Oh yeah, what is he actually doing with the show?:) I know he's doing something but to be honest I don't know what. Hopefully he'll return as a writer.

[Nameless]

he is credited as a "producer", which implies he comes in sometimes to pitch ideas. i don't think he'll write episodes again unless he executive produces one randomly like scully did in s14.

[Cartoonnetwork]

Well, I am a quite positive reviewer and I'm also starting to be worried. I have a strange opinion about season 17. I think the good episodes are very good: The Seemingly Neverending Story, My Fair Laddy, Xmas Stories and Homer Simpson, This Is Your Wife are all almost season 8 quality for me.

At the beginning of the season I was being kind of generous with episodes like Last Of The Red Hot Mamas, Milhouse Of Sand And Fog and The Italian Bob. I still think they were tolerable and entertaining enough (except MOSAF which the more I think the weaker it seems to me). Then the good bunch of episode were aired and I thought things were going swell. After Road To D'Ohwhere which was flawed, but still pretty good, I thought the writers were in the right direction.

But then plots like the ones in Homer's Paternity Coot, Bart Has Two Mommies and Milllion Dollar Abie appeared. And now another trilogy episode. Bart Has Two Mommies was more or less good and some scenes in MDA were ok (but ultimately it was quite weak and I think I could find it less than tolerable in years to come) but the fact that they are using such contrived plots makes me feel they are running out of ideas. In fact it's coming to a point when either the idea or the development is wrong but both are rarely ok.

So yeah, I'm starting to get dissapointed with the season too. And I feel like they are not trying too hard, cause whenever they have done something good it was quite good.

[Jayrayman]

Drunk Barney and Nameless, judging from your grades in your signatures I am surprised you can say this season is the worst of the Jean era as personally I think those grades you’ve given are quite respectable.

I don’t think season 17 is that bad, I have enjoyed most episodes and I still like to download the new episodes online. I still think season 13 is the worst season under Al Jean as most episode are bland and not that funny. Like most people on NHC I think it’s about time that we get a new showrunner, as I don’t think the show can improve drastically through Mr Jean.

[Galalimit]

Unfortunately Drunk Barney, only 2 or 3 people here will probably agree with you, as most people here still give out 4/5 or 5/5 to every episode according to the R&R threads which means most people here don't acknowledage any decline in quality.

I however have noticed a huge drop in quality from seasons 13 to 15, and have thought that season 16 and this season have been terrible but unfortunately, I seem to be one of only a few people who notices this.

[SSBOB]

I really like this season. Although it had a bad start(bonfire), I think it really picked up from there. I thought that Kiss Kiss was an excellent episode. But I liked every episode I've seen other than the premiere... I've yet to be bored with an episode, which is always a good sign, and I think the episodes are quite funny, and smart too.

[Veryjammy]

If Jean insists on staying on I would like him to go and look up the words 'plot', 'structure' and 'conflict' because apparently the writers have all forgotten what those words actually mean.

[Rory Mitch]

After a very impressive Season 16, I was expecting great things from this season, but I have been greatly disappointed. With the exception of the brilliant 'Seemingly Never-Ending Story', good episodes have been hard to come by. The biggest disappointment was 'The Italian Bob'. Bob is a great character, but this episode was so very mediocre. There have been several episodes reminiscent of the years when the show was struggling to produce memorable episodes, such a shame, so I would say it was time for a change.

[John Jay Smith]

Bonfire of the Manatees and Homer's Paternity Coot are some of the worst episodes I have ever seen. Besides that, season 17 has been extremely good. A great sep up from season 15 and 16.

[TheFlandersMan]

13 was the best Jean season, and it's all gone down hill from there. IMO 14>17>16>15, but they are all pretty close in quality. Al Jean has overstayed his welcome and someone should just throw him out of there. (btw, I feel that he writes really weak and lame comedy, a factor which attributed to the majority of the shows greatness and sucess in the first place)

I really like this season. Although it had a bad start(bonfire), I think it really picked up from there. I thought that Kiss Kiss was an excellent episode. But I liked every episode I've seen other than the premiere... I've yet to be bored with an episode, which is always a good sign, and I think the episodes are quite funny, and smart too.


Seriously SSBOB, no offense but I can't see how anyone can take you seriously when you give EVERY episode this season a very satisfying 10/10??! (except for one, and the other you just didn't see)

[Nameless]

Drunk Barney and Nameless, judging from your grades in your signatures I am surprised you can say this season is the worst of the Jean era as personally I think those grades you’ve given are quite respectable.

I have liked all the Jean years, this one just feels weaker.

[Ryan]

I however have noticed a huge drop in quality from seasons 13 to 15, and have thought that season 16 and this season have been terrible but unfortunately, I seem to be one of only a few people who notices this.

I have to agree with you on that one. For me, S13 was the last good season and its just been downhill from there. I used to look foward to Tuesday night, seeing a brand new Simpsons episode, but now.. I dunno. There's been some decent episodes here and there, a few good ones, but really its just a whole lot of really average viewing in recent years.

[Ivan]

Season 15, in my opinion, is the best of the Jean era, then Season 14, 13, and finally 16. I can't comment on Season 17, having only seen Milhouse of Sand and Fog, The Italian Bob, and The Girl Who Slept Too Little (Italian Bob was the best of the three, with MOSAF being the worst)

[Imperciph]

If Jean insists on staying on I would like him to go and look up the words 'plot', 'structure' and 'conflict' because apparently the writers have all forgotten what those words actually mean.

Totally agree. Plot structure is the biggest problem of the show. Characterizations are almost the same as in 13-16 : occassionally great, most of the time tolerable and sometimes flat. There is no noticeable difference in gag-execution yet the episodes as a whole seem to be getting more and more in lightweight humour .

But plot structure :meh. There has so many great premises ruined by bad plotting in this season that it is just sad. Satirical topics like recall election, outsourcing, assisted suicide seem like great ideas on paper but all of them failed to meet their potential seemly because they weren't focussed on enough at all. Not to mention some episodes this season are simply too erratic in nature to follow : Italian Bob, Last Of The Red Hat Mamas, Milhouse Of Sand And Fog, Million Dollar Abie. Even this year's THOH was one of the pointless ones in recent years.

And conflicts are just so damn underdeveloped. In majority of this season,there has been no more bonding between characters than the plot description itself implies : see Homer's Paternity Coot, We're On The Road To Do'hwhere, Million Dollar Abie, Bonfire Of The Manatees for evidence. Soap opera-ish emotional moments such as in Homer's Paternity Coot, Million Dollar Abie, Bonfire Of The Manatees, Last Of The Red Hat Mamas and action-filled "character in danger" climaxes like that in Bart has Two Mommies, Million Dollar Abie, Milhouse Of Sand And Fog, Homer's Paternity Coot, Bonfire Of The Manatees make for extreme boredom and irritation.

[H Thompson]

I do agree with the criticism of what's been said but for me at the moment it's sort of level with season 14. I find season 14 had plenty of episodes that were more ambitious and got lots of things like plot structure and conflict right. But just had a few flaws in other areas and had some very uneven humour.
The Dad who knew too little B-
A star is born again B-
I'm Spelling as Fast as I can C+
Three Gays of the Condo C+
Bart of War B-


So these for me are episodes where they got so much right and are a lot more memorable than s17 episodes of the same quality but along with some other things the humour just wasn't there. So they end up about the same quality as the funnier but empty and unmemorable D'ohwhere and Paternity Coot. and along with that it's been a far more consistent season, no D-'s here. and there's still been good episodes Girl Who Slept Too Little, My Fair Laddy earn B's and Seemingly Never Ending Story earns a B+. for me s14 had 2 B's 2 B+'s and an A-. So really I'd only expect at least 2 more B+ episodes to level with season 14. And that's not in terms of averages that just means both seasons have 5 good, memorable episodes.

[DotheBartman]

Season 14 had more ambition and a few more memorable episodes, but it was also way, way more uneven. A really interesting, even great, episode could be followed up with one of the worst episodes ever produced. By the time the season really hit it's stride, it had about two months of episodes left.

That said, I'm definitely enjoying season 17 in general, but.....I can't help but feel that this two year renewal was a misake (one year wouldn't be, neccesarily) and that the producers should really think about packing it in soon. It's just obvious that while the joke writing has become more consistant and as a result very few of the episodes are bad, that generally the quality stories just aren't there and that there are less and less episodes coming out that I'll really remember the show for. Probably the only one this season is "Seemingly Neverending Story", and to be honest it doesn't match up with the biggest hits of any of the other Jean seasons. I usually laugh through the episodes, but they're just feeling emptier and emptier, and it's only been a couple times this season that I've ended an episode feeling like I'd just watched something that was really clever and interesting and hilarious ("Seemingly" and "The Girl Who Slept Too Little"). And while the current quality is something I'm still willing to watch, with the stories gradually getting worse I'm just not sure the show has that much gas left. It's starting to feel (again) like a very old show that's slowly winding down and on its way out.

So, I dunno...I enjoy the show, but I think it would be best if there was either another showrunner switch or for the show to end after next season at least. I just don't want it to reach a point where a season ends and I can't even remember any of the episodes.

[luben]

It's not my intention to take the discussion off the topic. I just want to say I got the impression they are runnig out of ideas too. So it seems to me a contradiction the fact that one of the main problem of new episodes is that they are trying to stick too much stuff into a single episode and, as a consequence, they can't develop enough any good idea they got. I mean, if they focussed each episode on a single good idea and developed it properly, they'd save good ideas for other episodes and they'd fix the problem at the same time.
Back to the topic, I think Mr Jean should leave, because the show is getting stale (except 2-3 episode this season).

[729]

I definitely wouldn't say seasons 13-16 are similar and 17 is the outcast. For me 13 was still very Scullyish and it was only in the last few episodes of the season when it started to evolve. The start of 14 though, was a step back from the end of the previous season. The only way I can really describe season 14 is 'clunky' it just seemed so awkward and unsure of itself and contained some horific episodes. There were a fair few good episodes but Moe Baby Blues is the only one that has a Season 15+ feel to it and was very smooth. It wasn't until the start of the FAB production run that it really seemed to hit its stride and the style has pretty much stayed the same since.

16>15>17>13>14

[Drunk Barney]

I have liked all the Jean years, this one just feels weaker.

And that's the same for me, Jayrayman. Season 13-16's average was a B. But 17 has been a B-. I don't expect the show to be able to return to the golden years, but it's annoying when you can see it can become better.

DTB, how do you think Season 17 has compared with other Seasons?:)

[box elder]

i think a kind of "out there" story is fine so long as it isn't distractingly bad and the jokes are funny. like, i think "weekend at burnsies" and "co-dependents day" are 2 of the best Jean episodes (although i'm sure many disagree) even though they're silly and the stories aren't spectacular because they made me laugh a great deal more than many episodes that had good structure and horrible jokes.

but i agree that season 17 has been pretty stale and it seems some new blood would help. maybe if Jean stayed on but Mike Reiss co-executive produced with him? i don't know enough about all of this to really make suggestions though.

[Imperciph]

Well maybe I can offer a fresh perspective on this matter as I haven't previously watched quite a number of season 14 and 15 episodes. I watched a bunch of season 14 episodes I have never seen before and the difference between 14 and 17 became quite clear to me.

Humour-wise, I'll have to give it to season 17,actually. Season 14 had a lot of extremely weird gags that left me scratching my head as to why those even made to final script of such a heavily rewritten show. I mean, Moe admitting to like animals and Willie trying to swallow shards of glass ? Pie Sword ? Again, Moe kidnapping people ? Moe falling in love in Gil ? God eating fried chicken ? Homer bleeding profusely from shaving ? Homer fighting beavers ? What the fudge ?

But what all season 14 episodes that I watched had one key quality : cohesiveness. Even in episodes that got off to weird third act tangents like Strummer vacation or Strong Arms Of The Ma had a strong overall theme running throughout them : Homer's dream of becoming a rockstar and Marge learning to cope with her fears respectively. And there were episodes that maintained strong underlying satirical themes and social commentary like Mr. Spritz Goes to Washington, The Bart of War and 'Scuse Me While I watch the Sky and other episodes with good emotional themes like Three Gays of The Condo, A Star Is Born Again and of course, Moe Baby Blues. IMO, there haven't been episodes with good emotional theme apart from Marge's Son Poisoning and My Fair Laddy. Any satirical topics like assisted suicide, outsourcing and recall election have barely been explored, instead veering off to other tangents like Grampa becoming matador, Homer becoming a god and saftey salamander. In almost every season 17 episode it fills each act has its own theme. The Jean Era has definitely lost its cohesion as its progressed and now its the biggest problem plaguin the show.

That's not to say season 14 was all good. It arguably had worst bunch of holdovers of all time and it had episodes that I'll term as being the low points of the entire Jean Era and even the show in general like Helter Shelter, Pray Anything and Dude Where's My Ranch.

Yet season 17 is cluttered extremely forgettable episodes like Bonfire Of The Manatees, THOH XVI, Milhouse Of Sand And Fog, See homer Run, Last Of The Red hat Mamas, Homer's Paternity Coot, Million Dollar Abie. As inconsistent as season 14 was, IMO it is worth watching for episodes like Moe Baby Blues, Three Gays Of The Condo, Mr Spritz Goes To washington, The Dad Who Knew Too Little, A Star is Born Again, Scuse me While I miss the Sky alone. While in season 17, there aren't any episodes that'll make into my bottom 25, but there are very few that are worth rewatching : I only feel the urge to rewatch Seemingly Never Ending Story, Girl Who Slept Too Little and My Fair laddy on a regular basis.

Since the show is losing cohesion and losing ambition, its probably better if they pack it in soon.

edit : I feel that he writes really weak and lame comedy, a factor which attributed to the majority of the shows greatness and sucess in the first place)


What the fudge are you talking about? That didn't make any sense at all.

[TheFlandersMan]

What the fudge are you talking about? That didn't make any sense at all.

I thought it made sense. Oh, well it makes sense unless maybe you thought I was saying that "weak and lame comedy" was a huge part of their success. I should have worded it better. When I said it was a huge part of their success I was refering to COMEDY (good), not lame comedy.

[DotheBartman]

DTB, how do you think Season 17 has compared with other Seasons?:)

It's pretty much in the middle of the Jean seasons. Behind 15 and 16, ahead of 13 and (especcially) 14. The 13 comparison isn't totally fair though, not just because of the mediocre holdovers 13 had, but because 13 was basically picking up the pieces and it had this encouraging feeling that the show was really going somewhere again and trying new/interesting things and having real ambition....which isn't a feeling I get from 17 so much. 17 gets its points mainly from consistancy.

I think the best way to describe how I feel about 17 is that it has this very season nine-ish feeling....that is, that (again) very few of the episodes are genuinely bad, and most of them are at least of average or good quality and pretty funny throughout...but there's still this sudden feeling that the show is gradually stagnating. Much like 9, there's little real ambition, the big hits are becoming too few and far between, and there are a lot of problems that are gradually emerging....problems that could ultimately hurt the show very badly if they continue and get worse. The show didn't have to dip so much after season nine, as they could have picked it up again (or at least avoided the drastic slide) if they were careful....but they weren't. And while I enjoy the show now, I just have this uncomfortable feeling about where the show may be headed, and I don't like the thought of having another season ten on our hands.

[TheFlandersMan]

And while I enjoy the show now, I just have this uncomfortable feeling about where the show may be headed, and I don't like the thought of having another season ten on our hands.

You know, that's a statement that I was probably saying 3 or 4 years ago. To say that "the show may be headed" is an understatement. It isn't just heading there, it's THERE. It's been there. It's generally been an uninspired craphole for years now. Really, no offense intended, but come on, the show has been at the end of the line in it's lack of quality for quite some time.

[DotheBartman]

Then we have different opinions. Simple as that.

Four years ago the show was still just under a season out of season 12. I can't personally imagine suddenly having an ominous feeling right then. I mean, did you see seasons 11 and 12?

[Galalimit]

IMO, this season is WORSE than season 10 actually. At least season 10 had some good episodes IMO like Bart the Mother, THOH 9, Lisa Gets An A, Viva La Flanders, Wild Barts Can't Be Broken, Make Room For Lisa, and Thirty Minutes Over Tokyo.

Season 17 has had only one good episode so far(D'ohwhere) and I think that was just an accident as it was the first good episode in a very long time and all the episodes that have come after it have been terrible.

[TheFlandersMan]

Umm, yes, I did. The ominous feeling I'm refering to is mostly the dive that Jean took in Season 14 after a pretty good season 13. The gags especially, which has remained lame and inconsistant.

Scully's 11 and 12 were pretty bad a lot of times, yes. However I think the humor was still tight during his run, as well as some other respectable qualities he had (Structure, characterizations of cast besides Jerkass Homer, etc).

[Sarcastic Guy II]

The show is now despreate for a new showrunner. It's just not fresh anymore.
I agree with this statement but with nothing else.

16 was a wonderful season. 15 was pretty good. 14 was good, and 13 was OK.

It is time for a new showrunner though. Jean's style has gotten stale. Every single episode it seems has a pop song montage and is very formulaic. The Scully years were stupid but at least they were funny.

But I don't see Jean stepping down anytime soon. He'll obviously be there through next season (we probably would have heard something by now if not) and that leads me to believe that if it stops at 19, he'll just finish the show.

[SSBOB]

Seriously SSBOB, no offense but I can't see how anyone can take you seriously when you give EVERY episode this season a very satisfying 10/10??! (except for one, and the other you just didn't see)
I don't know if someone having a different opinion makes it so you 'can't take them seriously.' I've enjoyed all of the episodes, and I like the Simpsons. The fact that I enjoy the Simpsons might contribute to my high scores. I just don't really nitpick at every single detail and try to find points to tear apart for the show. (not a bash to people who don't like current seasons.) I've been very entertained by most episodes, so I give them high scores.

I have my opinion, you have yours.

[DKsimpson2]

I think the next few years will be very good. I don't see much of a decline but that may be my problem. even if you say there is a decline its still better then anything on TV.

I think up to 400 season 18 will be much like this year and pick up quality then the movie will come out alot more people will watch season 19 the quality will be the best in 7 years and FOX will sign for three more years.

in season 19 the fans from the 'golden years' will start to watch. 19 Will be the biggest year for the show. If we put the simpsons into the Beatles timeline we are at the St. Pepper years. the show is taking risks and the fans who like it like it alot, but the fans who don't hate it.

[box elder]

even if you say there is a decline its still better then anything on TV.




no it isn't.

[Cartoonnetwork]

It doesn't have to do with anything (well, only a little) but I would like to say I don't think Homer Simpson, This Is Your Wife suffers from the same kind of plot problems that are mentioned in other episodes. I remember a lot of people said it wasn't focused or that it was pointless. I thought the structure was pretty much ok and the plot was "the simpsons go to a reality show, they switch their wives and they win a plasma TV". Especially the plasma tv theme was generally overplayed during the whole episode and TV in general was also the theme of the episode. There was two other "subplots" in that plot: seeing what happens with Marge and what happens with Homer. So even if they spent more time in the Gervais-Marge relationship this is only a plus, Gervais character is not so important, OFF and Homer in particular is what matters and the fact that he won what he wanted to. I think it was more or less well told (in fact better told than The Girl Who Slept Too Little-this is a very weird episode for me, it has some season 6-ish humor, a good premise but 0 structure and a well animated but not especially interesting ending. I kind of liked it but I felt it could have been done much better, on the other hand the only thing I would change in HSTIYW is some parts of Marge's characterization and the I'll do it gag which was one of the worst this season).

[Sarcastic Guy II]

I have my opinion, you have yours.
I agree with both you and FlandersMan, in that you do have a right to your opinion, but holy S, you rate things really high.

I thought I was generous giving Million Dollar Abie a 4/5 (to you, an 8/10).

[Imperciph]

Scully's 11 and 12 were pretty bad a lot of times, yes. However I think the humor was still tight during his run, as well as some other respectable qualities he had (Structure, characterizations of cast besides Jerkass Homer, etc).

Are we watching the same show or what ? Have you forgotten almost every episode during seasons 11 and 12 started with an unrelated first act of the family going to some convention or fair or party ? Have you forgotten troll jockeys, 'destroy mad magazine', 'stop evil greenpeace', Bart going insane, Marge going insane,the family attacked by pirates, Homer fearing Bart trying to seduce Marge, nerd sweat and most of all "Surf's up?" Season 11-12 were the seasons where plot structure problems was its worst :one of the reasons KTAAR is so despised was it was one of the most pointless episodes ever.

Characterizations of the cast beside jerkass Homer was NOT better than it is right now. Bart was just some attention-seeking mischief maker in Brother's Little helper. In other times when he wasn't playing straight-man to Homer's wacky antics he was an extremely empty character who made the occassional witty comment. Lisa was either an annoying pc-thug or relegated to narrator role or sometimes had no character at all : Last Tap Dance In Springfield features some of her emptiest characterisation ever. Let's not even go to Marge : her characterisation in It's A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad Marge remains the most offensive character arping the show has ever done. She changed into some ditzy cleaning-freak who rarely had no semblance of personality other than being annoyed with her husband's wacky antics. You call Burns in The Mansion Family or Homer Vs. Dignity well-characterised ? In The Mansion Family he is some wacky senile dude who is out of it and his character in Homer Vs. Dignity is worst till date : never in hell should Mr. Burns find such thing entertaining : he used to be much cynical and proud to degrade himself to such activities.

Don't wanna argue about humour, but I don't see how the show was better in terms of structure and especially characterisations.

[DotheBartman]

Umm, yes, I did. The ominous feeling I'm refering to is mostly the dive that Jean took in Season 14 after a pretty good season 13. The gags especially, which has remained lame and inconsistant.

Okay, that's somewhat fair....I thought 14 was a huge dip too, though for me the first half was less of an ominous feeling and more of a "shit, the show's already back down the crapper" sort of thing. It wasn't until "I'm Spelling As Fast as You Can", "Mr. Spritz Goes to Washington", and then the relative stability of the episodes that followed that I was really convinced otherwise, despite a couple other good ones beforehand. An ominous feeling wouldn't make sense to me there though because it wasn't like it was going good and then suddenly started to feel like it might be getting ready to slip up again. It felt more like season 13 itself was just a fluke and that the show would never recover, which thankfully, it did for me towards the end of the season and then following in season 15 as well.

Scully's 11 and 12 were pretty bad a lot of times, yes. However I think the humor was still tight during his run, as well as some other respectable qualities he had (Structure, characterizations of cast besides Jerkass Homer, etc).

Uh....look to Imperciph's post, which is said better than what I could have said. The only thing I'd add is that most of the episodes that didn't have totally horrible structure and characterization basically didn't have them at all....episodes like "Pokeymom" were often just as bad, because they just lacked anything, not even anything to get mad at (generally speaking)....they were just sort of "there". Only a very few select episodes, especcially speaking of seasons 10-12 here, actually had characterization and structure that were interesting instead of either irritating or just uninteresting and tedious.

[box elder]

I have my opinion, you have yours.


yes, but someone else can look at your opinion (that you give nearly every episode a perfect score) and decide that your opinion is not to be taken seriously, because clearly you think the show can pretty much do no wrong. you're entitled to that opinion, of course. but someone else is equally entitled to write off all your other opinions a fanboyish based on that one as well.

[SSBOB]

yes, but someone else can look at your opinion (that you give nearly every episode a perfect score) and decide that your opinion is not to be taken seriously, because clearly you think the show can pretty much do no wrong. you're entitled to that opinion, of course. but someone else is equally entitled to write off all your other opinions a fanboyish based on that one as well.
lmao. Relax. I liked the episodes so I gave them good scores. It's not really a big deal.

[H Thompson]

Your response doesn't make any sense. He's not contesting the fact that you gave the episode good scores. and he seems perfectly relaxed to me.

[SSBOB]

yes, but someone else can look at your opinion (that you give nearly every episode a perfect score) and decide that your opinion is not to be taken seriously, because clearly you think the show can pretty much do no wrong. all your other opinions a fanboyish based on that one as well.
I'm saying to relax on the subject of bashing my scores. They're just scores. I ended my post with "I have my opinion, you have yours" which really should have just ended it, considering it's not exactly a big deal subject. It's not a big deal, let's just stop now. :)

[box elder]

just for the record, i wasn't bashing your scores. you have every right to feel that way about those episodes. i was only saying that if someone disagrees strongly with your grades, they're less likely to take your opinions at face value, because they obviously have different tastes than you.

[Sarcastic Guy II]

Are we watching the same show or what ? Have you forgotten almost every episode during seasons 11 and 12 started with (...)

Characterizations of the cast beside jerkass Homer was NOT better than it is right now.
Agree with you on the characterizations, but 11 and 12 were typically funnier than the last few years.

Good arguments on the characterization, you pinpointed it all really well.

[TerrorK]

Characterisation in both the Jean and Scully eras varies between characters, so you can't just say that "Scully had better characterisation" or "Jean had better characterisation" just like that.

Homer is better under Jean for example, but is still far from perfect, while I feel Marge is far worse under Jean than Scully (I still maintain that "Strong Arms of the Ma" was 1000 times worse for her than "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad Marge was), and I also feel Bart is far lamer under Jean than he was in the Scully era. Lisa though has improved in the Jean-era for the most part, and is less of a PC thug.

Burns and Hibbert still have massive problems, and are about as bad in both eras. Ned's probably worse with Jean than Scully by a small margin, while Milhouse is probably better with Jean than Scully by a small margin too.

All in all, both eras have had big character issues, so probably are about as equally bad as each other. Who you see as worse probably depends on which characters you like the most though.

[DotheBartman]

Characterisation in both the Jean and Scully eras varies between characters, so you can't just say that "Scully had better characterisation" or "Jean had better characterisation" just like that.



Yes you can. There are probably some specific examples in the Jean era that you could up to other specific examples of the Scully era and make it appear that Jean's is actually worse or on level (I agree that "Strong Arms" is horrible for instance), but as a general trend Jean's run is just much better. Jean has had at least a few episodes with awful characterization, but overall the whole family is improved; for instance, even if a few of her Jean episodes are horrible, Marge actually has characterization again instead of being merely a prop/cleaning freak that goes crazy once or twice a season. Same with Bart. And there's simply no denying that Homer and Lisa are far more on track now, even if (again) there's the occasional slip up, just as there would be even before Scully.

And I think side characters are only worth going into if they have a really major role on the series (like Burns and Ned for instance). Really small side characters like Hibbert aren't worth griping about to the extent of some overall trend in the show, unless almost every small side character is suddenly mischaracterized (which has never happened).