Why do people complain about Jerkass Homer but not Jerkass Marge?

[Galalimit]

One of the main complaints that people have with Mike Scully is jerkass Homer which is definitely a fair complaint. I could definitely see where people were coming from. Homer was definitely more of an asshole and more violent.

But what pisses me off is that everyone here complains about Mike Scully's creation of jerkass Homer but yet, no one here has ever ONCE even mentione Al Jean's creation of jerkass Marge. There are some Jean episodes where Marge is more of an asshole than Homer ever was. In season 14 is where it started and it began to get REALLY bad in season 16.

I'll use Don't Fear The Roofer as an example as it's one of the worst cases i've seen in jean episodes. Throughtout this entire episode Marge treats Homer like shit just because the roof has a small leak and keeps yelling at him even though it's not his fault. She makes a horrible remark "You can't even keep a roof over your family's head", even though Marge doesn't work at all and never contributes a dime to the house and Homer has to support a family of five all by himself. Everyone on this forum calls this episode a classic A+ episode and not one person has ever once mentioned Marge's behaviour in this episode which I just don't understand at all.

If you're going to criticize Mike Scully for what he did to Homer then be fair enough to criticize Al Jean for what he's done to Marge because it's almost the exact same problem.

[Veryjammy]

Marge doesn't work at all and never contributes a dime to the house

She has to look after Maggie, plus she does all the general housework, that's hardly a valid complaint.

Everyone on this forum calls this episode a classic A+ episode

No they don't.

Not that I disagree with what you're saying in principal, she is pretty unreasonable in the opening of the episode. I don't know quite what she expected Homer to do about the weather. But it's hardly a major issue is it? There have still been problems with Marge's characterisation, but little of it has to do with her being a 'jerkass'. If you can give more major examples then by all means do so but this really isn't a rampant problem.

[Simpsons Forever!]

But didn't Scully ruin Marge's character? Look at It's A Mad Mad Mad Mad Marge - her character was way more messed up then than it is now. I do agree with your point, she has been acing worse recently, like in Milhouse Of Sand And Fog, kicking Homer out of the house for no real reason, but I wouldn't blame Jean for creating a more violent Marge.

[Galalimit]

If you can give more major examples then by all means do


The Father, Son, and Holy Guest Star. Marge is a huge bitch to Homer and Bart in this one espically Homer. She wouldn't even let the poor man choose his own religion(Homer and Lisa even commented on this in the actual episode) and she wouldn't let Bart be catholic either even though it made both of them more happy. She was also angry throughout this entire episode for no real reason.

Mobile Homer was an awful one. The way Marge treats Homer here is absolutely disgusting. She keeps complaining non stop in this one as if it's HER money, HER house, HER everything, she even makes a comment saying that she pays the bills (WTF?) even though Homer is the one who finacially supports the family 100% and Marge wouldn't even have a home if not for Homer.

[Imperciph]

Yep, Its A Mad,Mad,Mad,Mad Marge is the worst example of character warping this show has ever done.

Not that I am disagreeing with some of Galalimit's points : Marge was characterised to be a ditzy housewife in quite a few episodes of season 10-14 and recently she has been shown to overreact a bit at Homer than her usual patient self (Don't Fear the Roofer and Milhouse of sand and Fog are obvious examples). But first of all, "jerkass" doesn't equal unlikeable characterisation, its more usually defined a one-dimensional loudmouth retarded crazy zany Homer schtick. And I will argue that there are enough instances that Al Jean Era Marge is perfect : Sleeping With The Enemy is a perfect example. There wasn't much wrong with her in Marge's Son Poisoning either and the last few scenes of the nutcracker segment with her giving Homer his christmas present is nothing short of great.

Of course there are inconsistencies in her character ; there is no denying that. I say her characterisation is representative of the quality of the entire Jean Era : sometime they get everything done right and somtimes they get everything done wrong. :D

[SimpsonByte]

No, if there was one episode that did it with Marge, it was "Lisa The Tree-Hugger", when she simply couldn't decide what to be.

[Number 10767]

I think the worst example of Jerkass Marge is Bonfire of the Manatees when she gets really pissed off about some stupid porno thing, destroys Homer's car, and runs away from her family to go hang out with Alec Baldwin.

[Adamm R)))]

^I hate that part.
I really do agree with what everyone's said about these horrible Jean-era Marge characterizations, but really after 4 years of her husband changing from stupid career to stupider career every week and general jerkass Homer, you think she'd be pretty pissed off most of the time.

[TerrorK]

And nobody here has even mentioned flasher boob-job Marge, muscled rape Homer Marge, and uncaring irresponsible run away from kids all over the country Marge.

And then there's that weird kooky Marge, when she does weird things like that "Gabba gabba hey! Who gives a doodle?! Whoopie ding dong dang" crap, and yells "that's when it's Marge's time to shine!" in Gabriel's face.

To be honest, I think Sleeping With the Enemy is the ONLY time her characterisation has been spot on since, I dunno... probably Bart the Mother back in early Season 10. Even Julie's voice acting seemed far better, and I think that came from a decently written script with no stupid lines.

[Galalimit]

How on earth does Sleeping With The Enemy have good Marge characterization? She let Nelson beat up Bart HER OWN SON at the kitchen table numerous times and she just stood there and paid no attention to it.

And the only reason she even noticed Nelson in the first place was because she felt unappreciated by Bart and Lisa. She just took in Nelson to get back at Bart and Lisa. She even says in the episode to Bart and Lisa "at least Nelson appreciates me" (or something along those lines) so I don't know where the praise for that episode is coming from.

[Veryjammy]

And nobody here has even mentioned flasher boob-job Marge, muscled rape Homer Marge, and uncaring irresponsible run away from kids all over the country Marge.

And then there's that weird kooky Marge, when she does weird things like that "Gabba gabba hey! Who gives a doodle?! Whoopie ding dong dang" crap, and yells "that's when it's Marge's time to shine!" in Gabriel's face.

To be honest, I think Sleeping With the Enemy is the ONLY time her characterisation has been spot on since, I dunno... probably Bart the Mother back in early Season 10. Even Julie's voice acting seemed far better, and I think that came from a decently written script with no stupid lines.

But that isn't Jerkass Marge. I'm not denying there have been plenty of problems with Marge's character in the past few seasons, but that doesn't make it Jerkass.

Her reaction to Bart and Homer in The Father The Son And The Holy Guest Star is little different to her reaction in She Of Little Faith, it just comes across a little angrier; in both cases she dislikes her family choosing a different religion. If you're going to call her a bitch for that then call her a bitch in Homer The Heretic for trying to force Homer to go to church even though he's happier at home. I'm kinda sick of new episodes being held to different standards than old ones.

How on earth does Sleeping With The Enemy have good Marge characterization? She let Nelson beat up Bart HER OWN SON at the kitchen table numerous times and she just stood there and paid no attention to it.

And the only reason she even noticed Nelson in the first place was because she felt unappreciated by Bart and Lisa. She just took in Nelson to get back at Bart and Lisa. She even says in the episode to Bart and Lisa "at least Nelson appreciates me" (or something along those lines) so I don't know where the praise for that episode is coming from.

She wasn't at the kitchen table when it happened. And yes she took Nelson in because she felt underappreciated by Bart and Lisa initially but I think it became abundantly clear that she genuinely enjoyed being with him and wasn't just doing it for 'revenge'

[Galalimit]

If you're going to call her a bitch for that then call her a bitch in Homer The Heretic for trying to force Homer to go to church even though he's happier at home. I'm kinda sick of new episodes being held to different standards than old ones.


But I DON'T LIKE Homer the Heretic. And Marge was in the kitchen Veryjammy, she had just finished serving pancakes or something and then Nelson started the beating. Marge was still in the kitchen.

[Veryjammy]

But I DON'T LIKE Homer the Heretic.

And? So according to you Jerkass Marge appeared as early as Season 4? Everyone knows you can't stand Marge for some bizarre reason, let it go.

[Drunk Barney]

A bit of a nitpick imo. She didn't let him beat him up. he punched him a couple of times, I don't think she was even looking.

She didn't do it to get back at Bart and Lisa. But yeah your right, she did only notice him because Bart and Lisa were egnoring him. But why, does that matter? We got to see why Marge wanted to spend time with Nelson, not just some random reason. And would jerkass Marge, take in a boy she felt sorry for, by trying to give him a better life?

Other good characterizations of Marge would be in Homer and Ned's Hail Mary Pass.

But I do agree with you Galalimit, about Marge being poor in the Jean era. I think she was better in the Scully years, I even thought she was near perfect/perfect most of the time in 9 and sometimes 10.

I have to say I agree with TerrorK, she was the best in ages, and probably the best since Bart, the Mother.

EDIT: (sorry didn't see your posts, VJ) But hopefully, I've made some points

[Galalimit]

And? So according to you Jerkass Marge appeared as early as Season 4?

Well for starters I dislike Homer The Heretic for other reasons, not becuase of how Marge was. The way Marge handled it in Homer The Heretic(in a calm peaceful way and she still let Homer make his own decision) and the way she handled it in Holy Guest Star (a complete psychopath who wouldn't even let Homer or Bart have a say in it)was very different.

Everyone knows you can't stand Marge for some bizarre reason, let it go.

Dear God, I knew you or someone else was going to try and turn this into a "Galalimit hates Marge thread" I am SO tired of this damn assumption that I hate Marge. I had it with Butters, Homer_Thompson and now you(why is just the british members?)
I've clarifed before that I DO NOT HATE MARGE and I never have. I just don't like how she is now for the reasons I've already stated in this thread. Do NOT try and provoke and try and start an agrument here about this so just stop it NOW. I do not want to start a fight.

[Veryjammy]

Galalimit I've heard you say recently you don't even like Marge in the classic era anymore.

And Marge is barely any different in Homer The Heretic, sorry but you're wrong. She invites Reverend Lovejoy round to try and get Homer back to church, she calls him 'wicked', and clearly implies that she will have to divorce him if he doesn't come back to church. She may say it in a less contentious manner but she still isnt letting Homer do what he wants to, essentially.

[Mira]

And nobody here has even mentioned flasher boob-job Marge, muscled rape Homer Marge, and uncaring irresponsible run away from kids all over the country Marge.

Yes they do. There are more people who hate the episodes you're reffering to than like them. Just because everyone doesn't rate with F-'s, doesn't mean they're overrating an episode. I think Catch em if you can is ok, but give both Large Marge and Strong Arms a D-.

[Galalimit]

And Marge is barely any different in Homer The Heretic, sorry but you're wrong. She invites Reverend Lovejoy round to try and get Homer back to church, she calls him 'wicked', and clearly implies that she will have to divorce him if he doesn't come back to church. She may say it in a less contentious manner but she still isnt letting Homer do what he wants to, essentially.

It was 2 completely different situations anyways. In Homer The Heretic, Homer wanted to give up religion completely and turn his back on God so it's understandable that Marge acted the way she did(and she didnt even act bad). In Father,Son,Holy Guest Star, Homer just wanted to change from christianity to catholicism which isn't bad at all because he's still has the same faith, same beliefs, and still would have gone to church(just a different one) and been holy and yet Marge acted even worse here.

[TheFlandersMan]

And then there's that weird kooky Marge, when she does weird things like that "Gabba gabba hey! Who gives a doodle?! Whoopie ding dong dang" crap, and yells "that's when it's Marge's time to shine!" in Gabriel's face.

I especially HATE that one the most. And I agree with many of your points, Galamit. Marge has been crapped on quite a bit within the past few seasons.

[DotheBartman]

It was 2 completely different situations anyways. In Homer The Heretic, Homer wanted to give up religion completely and turn his back on God so it's understandable that Marge acted the way she did(and she didnt even act bad). In Father,Son,Holy Guest Star, Homer just wanted to change from christianity to catholicism which isn't bad at all because he's still has the same faith, same beliefs, and still would have gone to church(just a different one) and been holy and yet Marge acted even worse here.


You're underestimating how seriously some people take the differences between the two. Even objecting to someone giving up religion entirely comes off as silly to me personally, but within the context of Marge's character and beliefs, neither example is at all unreasonable or unexpected.

And anyway, the entire premise of this thread is rather silly. In the Jean era, I don't think there's a single character who's characterization is griped about more than Marge's. To suggest that no on is complaining about it is ignoring a hell of a lot of comments and threads.

And it isn't just the british members who are tired of your Marge hate (did you not remember Jimbo's and Vox Nerduli's comments?.....). Rest assured the rest of us are sick of it too.

[Veryjammy]

It was 2 completely different situations anyways. In Homer The Heretic, Homer wanted to give up religion completely and turn his back on God so it's understandable that Marge acted the way she did(and she didnt even act bad). In Father,Son,Holy Guest Star, Homer just wanted to change from christianity to catholicism which isn't bad at all because he's still has the same faith, same beliefs, and still would have gone to church(just a different one) and been holy and yet Marge acted even worse here.

Try telling that to the people in Northern Ireland.

[Galalimit]

I'm going to explain this whole Marge hatred thing one last time and that's it and if anyone brings it up, i'm just going to redirect to this post.

I don't hate Marge and I never have. Yes at one point I did say I always hated Marge but that was back in 2004 and I have said many times since then that I took that comment back and it was wrong to say because I only meant that I dislike how Marge is currently so the comment was misleading. I know she's an important part of the show. And in fact "In Marge We Trust", "Marge Be Not Proud" and "Streetcar Named Marge" are some of my favorite episodes. I just don't like how she is now because of the reasons I stated in this thread. That's all.

So why is it such a problem for you DTB and VJ? My complaint is legitmate and everyone in this thread seems to agree with me except for you two. In fact, it's always you two now it seems who constantly disagree with everything I say. You two like to keep up this whole "lets make fun of Galalimit because he's stupid" garbage but both of you look around you, everyone has moved on. Yeah I was a crap poster(in fact I was probably the worst poster here at one point) but i've improved alot compared to how I was a year ago or even less than that. I've moved on from this childish nonesse that you two seem bent on continuing. All this immature nonesse is finished, H_T, Butters, Vox, Jimbo, Jafar have all moved on and I haven't had problems with any of them(or spoken to any of them really) in ages so DTB and VJ, grow up both of you because now you're the ones who look immature, do what everyone else has done and move on. Stop dwelling on my past. I'm not intrested in this garbage you're trying to start anymore.

[Halfway_Crook]

Galalimit, don't bother explaining yourself. Unless you analyze your own opinion and come up with a counterpoint to every possible argument, nobody will agree with you. Unfortunately, I don't feel like doing that so I'll just say, Marge is HORRIBLE in the new seasons.

Just wait, VeryJammy will say something negative about this post.

[Galalimit]

Thank you Halfway_Crook. I appreciate that.

[Veryjammy]

Galalimit, don't bother explaining yourself. Unless you analyze your own opinion and come up with a counterpoint to every possible argument, nobody will agree with you.



Or maybe just talk sense

Just wait, VeryJammy will say something negative about this post.

Well done you were right.

Galalimit you might want to ask yourself why so many people think that, I'm sure it didn't just materialise out of thin air. Maybe it's because you constantly moan about her voice, the fact that she isn't 'naturally funny', apparently she's now a 'jerkass' and I distinctly remember you moaning last year about how too many episodes were focussed on her. Y'know, maybe just a few reasons there.

[Galalimit]

EDIT: Forget it, i'm not even going to reply to any of VJ's nonesse anymore.

[TheFlandersMan]

:D

[Galalimit]

:D

huh?

[Semaj]

Marge being mean to Homer was part of the idea of Don't Fear the Roofer. Homer made friends with Ray, because he felt under-appreciated by both his family and friends.

Al Jean didn't create "Jerkass Marge". Marge comes off as an antagonist every once in a while, from as early as Homer's Night Out, to as later as It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad Marge. And come back after you're finished watching 'Screaming Yellow Honkers' again.

[Halfway_Crook]

Well done you were right.

Ladies and Gentlemen, hell just froze over. If I wasn't so sure he meant this in either a sarcastic or condescending way, I'd say VeryJammy just complimented me. Unfortunately, I know better than that so I'm not even gonna start anything.

[DotheBartman]

Galalimit, don't bother explaining yourself. Unless you analyze your own opinion and come up with a counterpoint to every possible argument, nobody will agree with you. Unfortunately, I don't feel like doing that so I'll just say, Marge is HORRIBLE in the new seasons.

Just wait, VeryJammy will say something negative about this post.

Believe me, Halfway....this isn't just a case of Galalimit disliking newer Marge. I think that at the very least the majority of posters here at least have some problems with the way Marge is characterized in newer seasons, myself included. The reason people are having trouble taking Galalimit seriously is that he really has a history of clearly hating Marge completely, or even if that isn't quite the case (which I doubt), it just has always come off that way. It isn't just because he's griping about newer Marge.

[zippy]

So why is it such a problem for you DTB and VJ? My complaint is legitmate and everyone in this thread seems to agree with me except for you two. In fact, it's always you two now it seems who constantly disagree with everything I say. You two like to keep up this whole "lets make fun of Galalimit because he's stupid" garbage but both of you look around you, everyone has moved on. Yeah I was a crap poster(in fact I was probably the worst poster here at one point) but i've improved alot compared to how I was a year ago or even less than that. I've moved on from this childish nonesse that you two seem bent on continuing. All this immature nonesse is finished, H_T, Butters, Vox, Jimbo, Jafar have all moved on and I haven't had problems with any of them(or spoken to any of them really) in ages so DTB and VJ, grow up both of you because now you're the ones who look immature, do what everyone else has done and move on. Stop dwelling on my past. I'm not intrested in this garbage you're trying to start anymore.

If I were you, I wouldn’t let it get to you. I don’t mean to be patronising at all but I’ve seen another forum where people’s core fundamental beliefs are constantly being ridiculed and attacked and then members pursue that member and never let them forget a mistake. It is childish of them and they probably should grow up or shut up. (addmitedly I know nothing about what this whole thing is about, but I'm saying IF they have been childish.)


I’d also like to say that I think Marge acting like a jerkass comes down to the fact she cant be 2D all the other characters develop good and bad sides and Marge cant stay like some benevolent character all the time.

But I do completely understand how you feel about people criticising homer and not marge. In the end, I don’t think you need to criticse either based on whether they act like a jerk. For me it depends on how amusing this is done. And my personal opinion is that Marge is the ‘’driest’ (no pun intended) of the Simpsons family. She’s essential as a supporting figure but when being centred on completely because she isn’t as mad-hap she doesn’t really hit it off well. But this is just my PERSONAL opinion.

[Semaj]

In the end, I don’t think you need to criticse either based on whether they act like a jerk. For me it depends on how amusing this is done. And my personal opinion is that Marge is the ‘’driest’ (no pun intended) of the Simpsons family. She’s essential as a supporting figure but when being centred on completely because she isn’t as mad-hap she doesn’t really hit it off well. But this is just my PERSONAL opinion.

Come to think of it, when Marge tries to make a joke or be sarcastic, it usually comes off very corny.

[zippy]

Come to think of it, when Marge tries to make a joke or be sarcastic, it usually comes off very corny.

I tend to think that as well. Marge has her moments but I think that's the reason they try to keep her away from the limelight.

[Generic]

I don't know about the "Jerkass" assertion, but Marge's character does come off as being a lot angrier in recent years. Too often her character's reaction to the events lead to another "argument with Homer" episode. Not only does the repeated plotline become stale after a while, for me at least the events that trigger the response from her character feel exaggerated or forced.

It doesn't seem right that she'd stick by Homer through small town public scandal (Princess Jasmine), a couple of near-affairs (Lurleen, Mindy), letting intimate secrets slip (Secrets of a Successful Marriage), a running gag that would be child abuse were they not cartoon characters (too many examples to name)...but then get upset and contemplate leaving Homer because he's enthusiastic about helping Skinner and Krabappel with relationship problems.

[Jamie]

*makes an intentionally lame pun*

*makes a pop culture reference*

*sexual innuendo*

oh homer!!! [frustrated murmur]

[Channel Surfer]

I think some people in this thread need to calm down a bit and bury some of their strange issues with one another. And I'm not just talking about Galalimit either.

Now the essay-dork in me has some contentions with some (well, a lot) of what's been said here. Not covering everything, but I hope to address the bulk of it. I apologize in advance if I repeat what others have already said.

But what pisses me off is that everyone here complains about Mike Scully's creation of jerkass Homer but yet, no one here has ever ONCE even mentione Al Jean's creation of jerkass Marge. There are some Jean episodes where Marge is more of an asshole than Homer ever was. In season 14 is where it started and it began to get REALLY bad in season 16.

I think, even removing the Scully era, it would be hard for Marge to be a bigger asshole than Homer. He strangles Bart semi-regularly after all.

I'm not sure if Marge has been a bigger jerk anyway starting in season 14, or hell the whole Jean era, and even if so rarely in a way where I'd be tempted to give Marge her own jerkass tag. Most of her spouts of asshole behavior have been at things that she should get angry or upset about, as opposed to the casual malice associated with jerkass Homer. She should get upset if mobsters are shooting a "gentlemen's" film in her own home. She should get upset if her son or daughter or husband are converting religions. She should get upset if Homer gets fired and starts driving ambulances in the span of an afternoon. And so on. A case could be made that she gets upset and angry more, mostly I think just because there's more things for her to get upset about, more marriage crisis episodes and such. Which is a problem in of itself, and her writing can be fairly shallow and obvious in those cases, but I don't know if that makes her more of an asshole.

On your point that she is written to be more of jerk than she should in these situations:

I'll use Don't Fear The Roofer as an example as it's one of the worst cases i've seen in jean episodes. Throughtout this entire episode Marge treats Homer like shit just because the roof has a small leak and keeps yelling at him even though it's not his fault. She makes a horrible remark "You can't even keep a roof over your family's head", even though Marge doesn't work at all and never contributes a dime to the house and Homer has to support a family of five all by himself. Everyone on this forum calls this episode a classic A+ episode and not one person has ever once mentioned Marge's behaviour in this episode which I just don't understand at all.

Be careful when using words and phrases like everyone and not one person. It's easy to find exceptions. Speaking personally, I didn't give it an A+, never claimed it was a classic, and had some contention with the family's treatment of Homer here. Yes, the episode was popular, but you still have to make sure your claims match the trends, otherwise your comments can be debunked with a simple link.

That said, Marge still has every right to get upset with Homer. It doesn't matter if she's not working outside the house for money, they're still married with all the responsibilities that follow from that. If you want to apply this to traditional gender marriage roles, as Homer and Marge often represent, that would be Homer's job, as breadwinner, to see to it that the roof doesn't cave on them (it was hardly a small leak like you suggest). Moreover, she has every right to continue to be upset when he says he'll take care of it, and from her view he doesn't. Even if that makes her an asshole, I think she can get away with being one, she doesn't, or shouldn't be passive perfect of course.

Well for starters I dislike Homer The Heretic for other reasons, not becuase of how Marge was. The way Marge handled it in Homer The Heretic(in a calm peaceful way and she still let Homer make his own decision) and the way she handled it in Holy Guest Star (a complete psychopath who wouldn't even let Homer or Bart have a say in it)was very different.

Like others have pointed out, she didn't exactly let Homer make his own decision in "Homer the Heretic". She actually kinda did in "Holy Guest Star" though. Her main concern was with Bart.

And again, she should. In her view, she should make sure that her kids are raised right, and believe in the right religion. The distinctions between the various Protestant religions, and the various Protestant religions to Catholicism aren't exactly small to those with deep religious beliefs, even if there's tolerance for what other people believe in. And to have an outside influence try to force their religions beliefs on her impressionable son, where she feels its her job as mom to teach those values is going to cause friction. Her hostility wasn't really directed at Bart anyway, and she treated him about the same as Lisa in "She of Little Faith", like Jammy mentioned (and both more sympathetically than Homer in "Homer the Heretic"). Of course, there's the question of why she'd send him to a Catholic School if she's that concerned about what Bart believes in, but I still don't think that makes her an asshole, or supports a jerkass trend for her.

If you're going to criticize Mike Scully for what he did to Homer then be fair enough to criticize Al Jean for what he's done to Marge because it's almost the exact same problem.

It isn't the same problem, even if there are problems with Marge. Most of the examples of her being a jerk are still grounded in some facet of humanity, or are brief scenes of sloppy writing that apply to pretty much everyone nowadays. Homer was just a jerk, casually and sometimes maliciously for no reason, on top of other issues. Kookiness, cleaning freak tendencies, and excessive stupidity I think are bigger, more consistent problems nowadays. Though all of that was still a bigger problem with Scully.

and yells "that's when it's Marge's time to shine!" in Gabriel's face.

Actually, that line (most of it) is from "Viva Ned Flanders" when she proudly gets to clean meat off the roof. Would attempt a cheap shot by pointing out that you are using Scully scenes to criticize Jean episodes, except that the real line is not exactly better.

[Toli]

Marge has been pathetic and unfunny since season 11. Shes as lame as when any other mother trys to be funny now.

[Imperciph]

Channel Surfer hit the nail on the right spot about is wrong about Marge in the Jean seasons : she is sometimes forced into situations for the sake of a plot that results in her acting in a more exaggarated manner than her usual calm self. A prime example is Large Marge which features shallow contrived writing for her at getting worried that Homer may not find her attractive anymore so that she could accidentally be given a boob-job. Same goes for all the examples Galalimit mentioned in marriage crisis episodes ; the writing of her is weak because in order to create the crisis she is made to get upset at some new stupid thing Homer has done. If her anger at Homer is not well-developed, it may often come off as exaggarated. But while exaggarated, it isn't completely unjustified.

And also, her behaviour in Father,Son and Holy Guest Star isn't psychopathic. It is perfectly plausible for a religious parent to be upset if she finds out someone is manipulating her children to convert to another religion. And she is hardly any extreme, especially compared Flanders in that very episode.

Still it is never similar to jerkass Homer. No matter how exaggarated Marge's behaviour may be, in no episode has she been constantly malicious and behaving in hee-larious irrational manner like Homer did during majority of the Scully Era. The only episode she has displayed such behaviour is from season 11 : Its A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad Marge.

[Halfway_Crook]

I think some people in this thread need to calm down a bit and bury some of their strange issues with one another. And I'm not just talking about Galalimit either.

Are you talking about me? Because although I'm not contributing much to this thread, I hardly feel that telling me to calm down when I clearly stated that I wasn't starting anything is the wrong way to keep me in place.

If you aren't talking about me, then I apologize for this post. But if you are, I'll gladly shut up if it bothers you that much.

I gotta go to school, now so I won't be posting for a while. Take that as a moment of peace.

[TransponderHut]

I haven't liked Marge in a long time. She seems kind of cold and harsh these days, a real ice queen. I remember when she used to be warm, motherly and Homer's smarter half.

[H Thompson]

*sigh* Why does everyone here have to exaggerate all the time?

[Cartoonnetwork]

I know I hardly contribute with this, but I mostly agree with what Generic and Channel Surfer said. Also Imperciph in his last post. Yeah, that's the thing. Homer usually does things that should make Marge angry, but she usually seems too angry, especially considering the fact she has been characterized as very patient in lot of classic era episodes- There is also a couple of times I don't think she should be angry at all- The Way We Weren't ending comes to mind (Homer already explained her why he couldn't go to the date)- but most of the times there is a reason why she should be upset.

[Mike Scully]

Now that I think about it, Marge became a bit more angry, more often, and more easily provoked, by season 16.

In the Scully era, there wasn't really as much wrong with Marge, other than that she was very bland and practically a non-entity; her sole role in the show was simply to point out when Homer was doing something dumb or crazy. Yes, there was It's A Mad Mad Mad mad Marge, but that was just 1 episode. The other Marge episodes, Realty Bites and Pokey Mom, were merely boring. Jean era Marge probably comes off as refreshing by comparison; even if she can be much more unpleasant at times, she still at least has more personality. And at best, the Jean era also has some episodes where Marge is excellently characterized: Three Gays of the Condo, Sleeping With the Enemy, 2nd act of Strong Arms of the Ma, Sweets and Sour Marge, which were an improvement over pretty much all of Scully's Marge. It seems like the writers are really trying too hard to find something new to do with Marge, whether it be making her more kooky or more antagonistic, so Marge's characterization is all over the place.

Marge being more antagonistic isn't necessarily a bad thing; I think she has every right to be worried about the family finances and house repairs, as she's apparently taken up and assumed responsibility for the role of raising the kids and budgeting the family's money instead of Homer. As Surfer said, there are more situations that call for her to get mad. However, sometimes it's over-the-top. The worst case I can think of is The Father, The Son, and The Holy Guest Star. I really didn't like her characterization there. She seems very unreasonable, intolerant, and contentious, about Bart's choice in faith. In Homer the Heretic and She of Little Faith, yes, she was also uneasy about the family switching/abandoning religion, but her motivation there was understandable; she was very scared for Lisa's and Homer's souls. She did some questionable things to deal with it, like trying to get Lovejoy to change Homer's mind, or bribing Lisa with Christmas, but her plight felt real and sympathetic. In Father, Son, and Holy Guest Star, however, she believes Bart can still get into heaven, but she still take issue (was she jealous of Bart and Homer getting into a better heaven?). Her problem with Bart being Catholic seems to come more from some very intolerant views on the Catholic faith, rather than from any concern about Bart's spiritual well-being. You could argue that Marge thought Bart didn't have a very good reasons to change faith, yet she had no problems with Bart not having good reasons to join her faith, which is hypocritical. She essentially played the role of the antagonist in the episode. This was surprising since she's normally the voice of reason, and the episode needed for Marge to have more undertsandable reasons for being upset at Bart's decision. Probably the worst manifestation of the more recent antagonistic Marge.

[H Thompson]

I actually feel the opposite to Mike Scully on the comparison of She of little Faith and Father son and Holy guest star. It's a little odd she would send him to a catholic school if it botherd her that much, but it's not really the same thing. Lots of people do send children to christian school's even if they aren't christians, it's not a particularly uncommon thing to do. I just found her general character and personality a lot more irritating in SOLF, she was a lot more kooky and ditzy.

And it certainly was the Scully era where they really started making her a lot dumber and kooky etc, they really pushed the obsessive compulsive housewife angle on her lot which carried on into the jean era it started happening less and less by 15 and 16 which I think is one of the main improvments to her character, but yeah I guess that's been replaced by her tendancy to be unreasonable which I hadn't really noticed untill recently. The first real example would probably be in The Way weren't which was still a good episode and I recall Jafar making a really good case for her response being justified but I still think it was too much. At the time it was an isolated example but since then there were the moments in roofer, bonfire and the completly ridiculous one in Millhouse of sand & fog. So today her characterisation is like most other things in the show - inconsistent it varies between too angry, too kooky, weird, middling, fine or very good.

[moonwalker69]

It's been commented on the Streetcar commentary that Marge seemed to be more defeated in the old days. I actually like that more because it showed that Homer cared when she was down, but now she takes action more and stuff that makes her less likeable - in my opinion.

What do you guys think...

[Channel Surfer]

Merged the threads because this really wasn't a bad discussion, but I don't think we need to see people repeating themselves from a little less than two months ago.

[Galalimit]

Channel Surfer, while I appreciate that you don't think this thread deserves locking, as the starter of this thread, I think it should be locked. Beacuse as you can you see for yourself, VeryJammy and DoTheBartman were both trying pretty hard to sway this thread off topic and turn it into a another flame war. I don't want that happening again so I think's it's best you just lock this thread and maybe let moonwalker start his own thread or whatever.

[H Thompson]

Are you like this for a joke or do you just not have any self-awareness?

[Channel Surfer]

Channel Surfer, while I appreciate that you don't think this thread deserves locking, as the starter of this thread, I think it should be locked. Beacuse as you can you see for yourself, VeryJammy and DoTheBartman were both trying pretty hard to sway this thread off topic and turn it into a another flame war. I don't want that happening again so I think's it's best you just lock this thread and maybe let moonwalker start his own thread or whatever.

I don't think commenting on some of your more infamous past opinions on Marge in a thread you made criticizing Marge qualifies as a flame war, at least as of how it was done in this thread. Nothing said here is that harsh, nothing worth closing this thread over.

[bluemoose]

Maybe she has become angrier, but I wouldn't call her a "jerkass". Well, at least not on the same level as Homer has become.

And even if she has, doesn't she have good reason to? Look at all the shit that she has to put up with from Homer. Especially lately, as he has jerkassy. But that's mute because, IMO, she hasn't become a jerkass. She has only become angrier because of at least 17 years of being married to a jerk (he was always fairly jerky, just more so lately). You can't really blame her.